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How do Mickel and Reverse therapy get away with scamming people with cfs so much

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by l2009, May 26, 2016.

  1. l2009

    l2009

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    It's a total disgrace the way they take so much money of so many vulnerable people for pretty much nothing back in return, is it true they are answerable to no one but Dr Mickel himself?

    I did it for years and to me it's disgusting what they are getting away with, has anyone else had a similar experience?
     
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  2. wdb

    wdb Senior Member

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    Why do you single out Mickel and Reverse therapy in particular ? With a few web searches you could probably find 100 more treatments being offered to CFS sufferers with no better evidence base.
     
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  3. Invisible Woman

    Invisible Woman Senior Member

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    People who are desperate will try almost anything.....spend everything....

    Yet there are still those who believe we don't want to get well. In fact, I've heard lots of ME folk say they've been told "if you wanted to get well you'd try it!" to justify whatever lunacy their friends/relatives want them to waste their resources on.

    The problem is the people who seemingly recover from this type of "therapy" are quite vocal and evangelical. We never find out whether they were officially diagnosed and if so which criteria were used etc.
     
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  4. l2009

    l2009

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    Id be just more bitter about them cause of all the money they got off me
     
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  5. l2009

    l2009

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    There would be no point paying for it, if you do want to try it, they really teach you nothing or than illness is de-pressed 'emotion' (energy in motion) and its up to you to work out your root cause and away you go, they blank people and become very aloof after 6/7 sessions from my experience
     
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  6. Invisible Woman

    Invisible Woman Senior Member

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    There are a lot of therapies out there like that I am afraid. The lightening process is another. These "treatments" are advertised with vague descriptions and bold claims. When they don't work then it is the client that is doing something wrong. Unfortunately, snake oil salesman tend to be very persuasive.

    PwME are vulnerable because of:
    a) the lack of effective and safe mainstream medical treatments
    b) the stigma of the condition can make us a bit more susceptible to the pressure of well-meaning individuals urging us on to keep trying - regardless of lack of good scientific evidence.
    c) genuine and overwhelming desire to recover

    I've been ill for about 2 decades. I tried all sorts, especially in the first few years. I am pretty hacked off when I think of the waste of time and money & my own precious reserves of health. I had bought into the idea that modern medicine can conquer all & simply couldn't/didn't want to believe that there was little to be done.

    At least now people can come to places like the PR forum and ask questions before trying different things. They can learn from our experiences. That's progress. 20 years ago I felt like I was totally alone.
     
  7. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    @I2009 I have some experience with these kind of therapies, although not specifically Mickel or Gupta. They work great when you're healthy, but haven't had any effect on my illness. When I read stories of people who are doing these therapies, I feel like I get how they 'work', but I'd love to hear your opinion on this, as you have first hand experience.

    So what these therapies seem to do, apart form getting you into a mind control induced positive mindset, is that they make you deconstruct and relabel your illness. All the symptoms that you keep on having all throughout the training are relabelled as being because of 'hormonal issues' or 'POTS' or 'emotional issues' - anything but ME. So in the end you are freed of ME, although you still have exactly the same symptoms. That technique can be a pretty powerful mind trick, at least for a while.

    I wonder if that's how you experienced it?
     
  8. l2009

    l2009

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    Yeah that's not a bad point

    Ive spent the last 10 years living as if i dont have m.e because of these therapies but its been a complete disaster, id have been better off admitting i had m.e and staying in bed

    Ive gone out to work and stuff like that, but i dont have the energy or concentration so i always get sacked or something bad happens, i crashed the car a few times but its because im pushing myself, when without these therapies iw ouldnt have to do that, they can be kind of brutal tbh
     
  9. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    @I2009 When I think back on the time when I had ME but didn't know I had it because doctors wouldn't tell me anything, I did a lot more, even though it was pure hell. Cause when you don't know you're sick you just push through it. But ultimately it's going to bite you in the face. I'm sorry to hear you've been struggling like that for ten years. Hell is probably an understatement...
     
  10. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

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    My story too--I just kept going even though there were times when I felt I was going to die within a day. Looking back, I don't know that I am sorry that I kept pushing not knowing I had ME. I had a lot of adventures that I would have missed had I known about things like pacing. For example, I never would have even contemplated my trip exploring the high Himalayas.

    There were no treatments--at all--way back in "those days," so even if I had had a diagnosis I wouldn't have had treatment. I was one who would seriously crash for a few weeks, but then get back to baseline with enough total rest. I guess it is the eternal discussion about whether to burn the candle at both ends or use the candle more responsibly.
     
  11. Effi

    Effi Senior Member

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    I also think this pushing through can happen especially when you have slow onset ME. In the beginning you can still push through, but you're slowly going downhill to a point where this becomes impossible. In hindsight in those days my entire life was a constant PEM daze.
     
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  12. Chrisb

    Chrisb Senior Member

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    I know nothing about this "therapy". Is it based entirely on the principle "Many a Mickle maks a muckle"?
     
  13. sarah darwins

    sarah darwins I told you I was ill

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    Almost certainly! ;)

    In case you love the smell of snake oil in the morning, here's the website: http://www.mickeltherapy.com/medical-conditions/chronic-fatigue/

    And a telling extract:

    You may notice that in the last paragraph they have magically discovered the cause (they must have because they claim to address it). They also suggest there has been endless research into infectious origins, which is of course a downright falsehood.
     
  14. l2009

    l2009

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    When I first started it, it was 92% of people get better, the ones who don't only do so because they don't finish treatment, now it's gone down to it can help some people, they were obv scamming from the start

    I also don't believe they want it on the nhs

    Imagine if they did? People who have a bad experience would be able to speak up or complain about it and I don't think mickel therapy would last long if that was allow d
     
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  15. Invisible Woman

    Invisible Woman Senior Member

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    I don't think it would make a lot of difference. Just look at the NICE guidelines for CBT/GET. Still going even though patients say it isn't effective, or even safe. The NICE clinical director even admitted they weren't fit for purpose. Yet still we are stuck with them and each day more people are being harmed.

    As long as a treatment is approved then no one cares what patients have to say.
     
  16. panckage

    panckage Senior Member

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    marketing...
     
  17. EtherSpin

    EtherSpin Senior Member

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    I can think of three mechanisms offhand

    1. people without true CFS or who have spontaneous recovery during their therapy are gonna shout to the hill tops, I have to edit my facebook posts so one dear friend can't see them - she spins every new bit of CFS research as supposed evidence for her attitude based cure

    2. people who don't recover on these are shamed for supposedly not sticking to the program or for having a poor mental attitude

    3. family and friends of CFS sufferers and non sympathetic cynics who label us as welfare scoundrels will all like to latch onto the idea that there is a straight forward treatment for the sufferer if they were only to change their mindset !
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
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  18. valentinelynx

    valentinelynx Senior Member

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    Oooh. you beats me to it! :rofl:
     
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