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How did XMRV enter humans?/Vaccines and XMRV

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by Daffodil, Dec 29, 2010.

  1. Daffodil

    Daffodil Senior Member

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  2. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I have not seen it before. Thanks for posting. I'm very interested in this subject and have started a collection of studies and other info on the origins of XMRV. It all seems to point towards vaccines as the culprit.
     
  3. guest

    guest Guest

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    Thanks for posting this. The full article can be viewed by clicking the PDF link.
     
  4. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi Daffodil, this was a natural inference from the Hue paper. I commented on this on another thread. The naysayers basically scored an own goal on this one (this comment was from someone replying to my post). You can find my snake oil post here:

    http://forums.aboutmecfs.org/showth...-Five-Papers-on-XMRV-and-Contamination/page19

    It doesn't make it right however. Good conspiracy theories always fit the facts. We need to identify exactly which vaccines, which means testing. Then we can backtrack to the cultures, and then forward track to every vaccine batch ever made using those cultures. This will give us facts, until then its only (conspiracy) theory.

    Alternatively we need a whistleblower. Somebody has to know, who will be the first to step forward? If nobody does, I suspect there is nothing to the theory.

    Do keep in mind that XMRV has probably been infecting people since before 1932 (presuming that the 1934 Californian ME epidemic really was XMRV and ME, and not something else). An earlier thread explored the possibility that XMRV is due to a un/natural recombination of two mouse viruses.

    Why a vaccine? To explain low mutation rates. Is this really necessary? I seriously doubt that XMRV mutates anything like as fast as other viruses. Its life cycle makes this extremely unlikely. I think a whole lot of researchers just dropped the ball and got this wrong - if it has very limited replication cycles, and very limited copy numbers, so even a high mutation rate will result in much lower variation even over most of a century.

    On the other hand, even if this explains low variation (and low variation is not at all certain anyway), it doesn't disprove the vaccine theory.

    I also found a number of glaring omissions/errors in the posted paper when it came out on cocure. I might go back and post about these if I have time. Essentially we need to keep in mind that if even half the unpublished science we keep hearing about is right, many of the assumptions that people are working with in regard to XMRV are wrong. We need to keep following the science, and demand more and better funded science.

    On the other hand (hey I'm running out of hands!) we already know it is theoretically possible that a vaccine can trigger ME if you already have XMRV. While this doesn't rule out a vaccine contamination theory, it might make it unnecessary.

    We still need hard evidence. I am happy for it to go either way, because the good news if a vaccine is involved is we can yank all the contaminated vaccine off the market and start investigating who knew what for those pesky class action lawsuits. How do you think a $700,000,000,000,000 law suit sounds? Maybe thats why there is such pressure to keep this quiet. Oh, damn, another conspiracy ... they seem to be spreading!

    bye
    Alex

    Correction: the paper in question I did not read on cocure. I have other sources, some of which I am bound to not disclose. Sorry about the confusion. There are a number of issues with the origninal paper and assumptions, so I should get to writing a full review. Damn, I was hoping to avoid it this close to New Years! Alex3619
     
  5. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi everyone, in anticipation of those who ask how I got the seven by ten to the power of fourteen figure, I suspect that XMRV infects about 10% of the world population, or 700 million. Just multiply this by a million. A million is probably a little low, but then most who are infected are in the third world and wont be joining the lawsuit.

    Watch governments scramble to limit liability!

    Bye,
    Alex
     
  6. Jemal

    Jemal Senior Member

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    This is a pretty scary report...

    Getting a replicating retrovirus from a vaccine is definitely not good.

    It was written by 3 Dutch scientists, working for the University of Amsterdam. Some of them do HIV research. This is the profile of one of them, Ben Berkhout, a Professor of retrovirology and also an editor for the journal Retrovirology I think?

    http://www.retrovirology.com/edboard/start.asp?id=51699

    Ben Berkhout was also one of the authors of a negative XMRV study:
    http://forums.aboutmecfs.org/showth...sma-from-HIV-1-Infected-Men-in-The-Netherland

    After that negative study they continued research on XMRV. They seem to dismiss XMRV being purely contamination on page 2 of this publication, because XMRV proviruses have been found in prostate cancer. So their conclusion seems to be XMRV is a real virus and that's good.

    Anyway, if such people are hypothesising about the possibility of XMRV spreading through vaccines, I am getting a bit scared. They don't fit the profile of the average conspiracy theorist...

    Some more info about Ben Berkhout:
    http://www.antivirals.elsevier.com/bio_berkhout.asp
    He has 300 manuscripts to his name.
     
  7. pictureofhealth

    pictureofhealth XMRV - L'Agent du Jour

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    I find vaccination contamination a highly plausible theory, but we might have to wait for further studies to substantiate it. (There - hopefully that opening sentence will keep the scientifically minded, logical, intellectual folks happy!).

    Now for the gut feeling ....!

    Ah ha!!! This was my most likely theory as to how XMRV made the cross over into the human race. Vaccine contamination.

    It could be a very good reason to explain why the MRC in the UK have been so slow/reluctant to fund general biomedical research into ME - could it be that they know exactly what the research will show?! Plus they are probably funded by the very industries that make the vaccines.

    It could certainly explain last week's orchestrated 'nothing to worry about here folks, move along, contamination' campaign in the UK medical and lay press?

    Well it IS contamination of course - but in an entirely different way - so technically they might be telling the truth. And why would any sensible doctor expect vaccines, one of the seven wonders of the medical research world, to be the root of the problem?

    Could also explain those unrevealed ME documents at Kew in the UK which have been inexplicably barred from public release for another few decades?

    Finally, the anecdotal evidence!
    I had 8 vaccinations to go to Africa on a work trip - and subsequently became very ill over the following years, starting with a deep seated fatigue and severe sleep disturbances that wouldn't shift, making work incredibly difficult and culminating in palsies and tremors and being unable to stand up. None of the vaccines were for Hep B, often noted as a favourite precursor to developing ME, but did include Yellow Fever (you can't get in to some African countries without a signed GP note that you have had this vaccination), Meningitis, Tetanus, Polio etc etc.

    Anyway, just to keep the intellectuals, 'left brainers' and traditional scientists happy, I'm not saying that this IS the transmission route, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is. Let's see if the usual suspects in the UK try and bury this paper ...

    In any case, if we are going to check the nation's blood suppies, it might be commonsense to scrutinise all vaccinations, public medical and lab supplies such as medical fluids (I/V saline, dextrose, heparin etc) - all widely used in medical care the world over.

    Probaby better to nail this now than another 2 decades down the line - damage limitation and all that. ;)
     
  8. Jemal

    Jemal Senior Member

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    Hypothesizing that XMRV entered humans through vaccines:
    It's possible those vaccines are no longer used. If people got infected with a replicating virus, it might also be infectious. Meaning it is now spreading through other routes.
     
  9. eric_s

    eric_s Senior Member

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    I agree, Jemal. So far i didn't care too much about that sort of theories, but this feels scary. Those are serious people. And i do feel that there will be a lot of walls one has to break through if somebody wants to do investigation in this direction (vaccines).
    Such a finding would change the world. People might not want to get vaccinated anymore and the liability would be astronomical. And if some of the people responsible for this were to still be alive, they would have to go into hiding for the rest of their lives :eek:
     
  10. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi Jemal, I think you are correct, this is a distinct possibility. However, following on from Hue it is also possible that one in one hundred laboratory cultures are infected, and that will also mean one in one hundred vaccines that use such cultures. Bye, Alex
     
  11. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    I'm trying to read this article, but not having much luck. Maybe someone could answer what I was looking for - When would have been the earliest possible date that someone could have (in theory) been infected by a contaminated vaccine?
     
  12. outofstep

    outofstep

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    list of vaccines

    hi August I posted a list over here:
    http://forums.aboutmecfs.org/showth...mals-and-also-(wild)-mice&p=141427#post141427




    ETA some interesting Kaprowski (Elaine DeFreitas' boss) info (originally on wiki, now at http://www.answers.com/topic/polio-vaccine#ixzz19Wpf8MET):

    "In 1952 and 1953, the U.S. experienced an outbreak of 58,000 and 35,000 polio cases, respectively, up from a typical number of some 20,000 a year. Amid this U.S. polio epidemic, millions of dollars were invested in finding and marketing a polio vaccine by commercial interests, including Lederle Laboratories in New York under the direction of H. R. Cox. Also working at Lederle was Polish-born virologist and immunologist Hilary Koprowski, who claims to have created the first successful polio vaccine, in 1950. His vaccine, however, being a live attenuated virus taken orally, was still in the research stage and would not be ready for use until five years after Jonas Salk's polio vaccine (a dead injectable vaccine) had reached the market. Koprowski's attenuated vaccine was prepared by successive passages through the brains of Swiss albino mice. By the seventh passage, the vaccine strains could no longer infect nervous tissue or cause paralysis. After one to three further passages on rats, the vaccine was deemed safe for human use.[13][14] On February 27, 1950, Koprowski's live, attenuated vaccine was tested for the first time on an eight year old boy from Letchworth Village, New York. The boy suffered no side effects and Koprowski enlarged his experiment to include 19 other children.[15][13]"

    "Between 1957 and 1960, however, Hilary Koprowski continued to administer his vaccine around the world. In Africa, the vaccines were administered to roughly one million people in the Belgian territories, now the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Rwanda and Burundi.[55][56] The results of these human trials have been controversial,[57] and accusations in the 1990s arose that the vaccine had created the conditions necessary for transmission of SIV from chimpanzees to humans, causing HIV/AIDS. These hypotheses have, however, been refuted.[55]"
     
  13. pictureofhealth

    pictureofhealth XMRV - L'Agent du Jour

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    If vaccine supplies have inadvertently become contaminated and if the scale of human illness as a result has already become known to medical research councils - then yes, this may be perhaps exactly the reason for the lack of centrally funded biomedical research from some major medical organisations right now (I'm thinking of the MRC in the UK particularly), because they don't want to implicate the nation's vaccine supply.

    And if so, it may also perhaps be the reasoning behind not releasing the 'secret' ME documents at the Kew archives in the UK, and why the length of time they will be kept under lock and key has been extended for a few more decades.

    What the policy makers may not have realised is exactly how many people in the population may have become infected if there are contaminated vaccines at large. They may even have thought that such a contamination was essentially harmless to humans and have now realised what a time bomb this truly is.

    Better to bite the bullet and stem the tide now - and start by checking the vaccine supplies. Maybe we can simply rule this out.

    However, if the vaccine companies direct profits from sales into funding Medical Research Councils - we are in trouble cos this research is unlikely to be given a smooth ride - as you point out.
     
  14. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    Just wandering - My last "vaccine" was a tetanus booster 30 years ago. The rest was way before then. I've only been sick for 5 years, but I geuss a vaccine may have weakened immune system somehow. I don't think I got the virus from a vaccine though, but I can't figure out how I got it (haven't been tested for XMRV related viruses) though.
     
  15. Jemal

    Jemal Senior Member

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    Hypothesizing some more:
    Maybe you got the virus through another route. It could also take a long time, before you show any symptoms. A trigger could also be involved, so you might have had a time bomb in your body for 25 years... and it blew up under certain conditions.

    The virus itself might be relatively harmless and it might have been spreading through our bodies for years, before our immune system picked it up (maybe because of another infection?). Many of our symptoms could be explained by the immune system waging war on this virus.
     
  16. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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  17. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    OF Mice and Men: How XMRV May Have Gotten into Humans via Vaccinations

    I attached this paper to the post. It suggests a way XMRV may have gotten into humans through vaccinations. I haven't read it yet but an interesting idea...if mouse DNA or mouse viruses are everywhere - why not vaccines?

    From the abstract

     

    Attached Files:

  18. Cort

    Cort Phoenix Rising Founder

    From the conclusions:

     
  19. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    If by chance a vaccine might have possibly been contaminated. Which one was it or is all of them due to what they are made of or how they are manufactured? I ask this because I'm trying figure when I may have become infected. Unless it is an airborne infectious agent it did not happen in the last 15 years and I have only been sick for 5 years. I geuss we will know one of these days!
    It's almost January and I am expecting some published studies this month (I'm praying for Dr. Singh's and Dr. Baranuk's)
     
  20. Jemal

    Jemal Senior Member

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