Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Sushi, Mar 12, 2017.
You are right.
It was a friendly reminder for everyone. Several people on this forum have cognitive issues or suffer from "brain fog". I don't expect or ask anyone to post from any scientific journal. And, I agree, everyone should do their research before experimenting. But, if anybody, feels there is any doubt about the veracity of some information that is posted, then any good forum member has his or her duty to bring it to everybody's attention to the best of his or her technical knowledge & hopefully expect other more knowledgeable members to chip in. It was a cautionary message that's all.
Jay goldsteins resurrection drug was ketamine . Would love to try it myself . Maybe this is why it helped so many people. I think it was one of those drugs that may have worked once only though . The tolerance was something he never understood
@A.B. If my self experimenting gets me killed or worse, makes my ME/CFS even worse, it's still worth the shot. From a purely economic standpoint, the OMF gets the same amount of money for their research regardless of whether or not I try a 30 dollar bag of Ketamine. I get that people should be safe and cautious, but all I know was my PEM is down and I'm pretty sure I heard Ron Davis confirm that mTOR is in some way central to this disease. So for all the people who actually want to feel a little better can come with me, as for you, you can wait for the double blinded placebo controlled trials and best of luck with that.
However you could make yourself and others worse. Ketamine for example is pretty nasty stuff. i hope people reading this thread don't misinterpret the wild speculation for scientific fact. I'm not expecting scientific journal, but equally I don't expect "sloppy misleading" either. For example what I really don't understand is why taking whey protein is any different from eating real food? The amounts of leucine quoted on this thread as supplements are normal amounts you get from just eating properly.?
Misleading? Sushi asked how to stimulate mTOR (read the subject) and I posted some options. What you choose to do with that information is your responsibility.
I agree that you probably don't need whey or leucine supplements if you eat enough protein. But maybe not everyone can or want to eat 200 grams of meat or 6 eggs several times daily to get a decent dose of leucine.
I'm worried about good science being twisted into pseudoscience and people experimenting with things they don't understand to their detriment. And with regards to leucine there are more than chicken and eggs available so perhaps looking at a more balanced diet might be a better approach. that is my opinion as a scientist. Take it or leave it.
Probably half the threads on the forums are people experimenting with things. If you have a problem with that you are on the wrong board.
I am not recommending any diet. I am not recommending leucine either. All I have stated is that leucine stimulates mTOR. Take it or leave it.
That was a hypothesis, not a confirmation.
I don't really want to get into this argument, I just wanted to point that out.
I do not take suplements and do not eat what most would call a balanced diet. That does not prevent my improvement.
I give my body what it ask for. If it wants sugar it gets sugar. If it wants salt I give it salt. If it wants spycy I give it spicy.
The same goes for meat, eggs, fat, etc,etc,etc, etc........
If it wants nothing I do not eat.
Maybe this thread should be in the treatment section, where people who want to experiment don't need to interact with those who don't?
This thread needs to cool down.
We are all frustrated with not finding symptomatic relief (for 2 decades in my case).
Perhaps I speak for myself only, but I have experimented this disease to death.
That's why I'd recommend to others who are more new to the ME/CFS world to wait a little longer until we have a more credible molecular target. mTOR is MAY be such a target in the future but for now it is nothing but a preliminary hypotheses.
@Cheesus is correct. For those who want to experiment anyway, take this to the treatment section and they can continue this thread without the naysayers chiming in.
One theory Dr Don Lewis has is that gut problems are preventing adequate digestion and transfer of amino acids from regular protein sources. This is why he recommended whey, to feed into the energy pathway downstream of the hypothesised PDH blockage.
Alternatively, perhaps the ratio of aminos to sugars in the blood stream is what provides signals to mTor, and by taking amino acids without other types of food you can more effectively lift the ratio?
(Alternatively, it is all a placebo effect!)
**warning: anecdote follows**
I have always eaten a large amount of protein. lots of meat every day, nuts, tofu, legumes. But when I started taking whey powder I noticed an improvement in my PEM.
Is there a danger in taking amino acids? I mean if there's no danger it's worth a try isn't it.
I bought this in October on someone here's advice but i still haven't tried it. It doesn't mention "branch chain" so i guess these aren't the ones that help your Mtor?
Rhodiola is an adaptogen and consistently with that briefly looking over the articles (including examine.com) it can technically do both situationally, but most of them write about it as an AMPK and autophagy booster which are opposite mTor. And that's just with its most active compound, it has more than one.
Not only the EGCG in tea but also the caffeine are well-known inhibitors. They probably come out stronger than the theanine.
Technically a lot of the studies are in vitro. But with something like caffeine it seems pretty certain it can lower mTor activity (benefits get ascribed to it).
Didn't spot anything specifically about Ashwaganda (still got a jar of an extract of this one I bought against my better judgment - not impressed). That one looks like it go either way, or cancel itself out, it is interesting.
Vaguely-speaking herbal compounds tend to work through some forms of hormesis or loosely reworded, stressing the cell for a benefit. This usually means increased FoxO, AMPK, autophagy and other things loosely opposite to mTor.
I used to think eating loads of high-protein foods was just a good, but further trying isolated lysine and others it's pretty clear the surge in blood levels from fast absorption really makes a difference. Whey is the fastest-absorbed (closest to supplements) so it's by far the best value.
AFAIK the benefits from Rhodiola may be from Salidroside, a constituent that activates Akt and therefore downstream mTOR.
L-tryptophan is another amino capable of activating mTOR and also improving TJ epithelial cells (good for leaky gut too?).
True Ketamine is a powerful drug, though only nasty if misused. (it has been used as a street drug) I mentioned that I may try it--it was not my idea but has been proposed for me by an anesthesiologist who has a lot of experience using it, and who is consulting with my cardiologist.
I have used Ketamine as an dissociative anesthetic in the emergency room on children. Very weird drug. The patients eyes are open but they feel no pain nor do they remember the event. My best friend who is an cardiologist suffered from depression that appeared refractory to the usual SSRI drugs. At the hospital, he received ketamine by an anesthesiologist with remarkable results. From one treatment his depression has been under control for the past several months.
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