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Homeopathy and other things.....

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Chris Wick, Jun 28, 2012.

  1. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    I have given an up to date definition of Allopathy above Kina.
    It is not a derogatory term. Allopaths may not Scientifically approve of it, but this is an Alternative forum.

    When the Allopathic mindset keeps on trying to impose itself onto Homeopathy - then it becomes essential to discuss Allopathy and Homeopathy - unfortunately.

    It really would be nice now to actually chat with people not so much of Allopathic mindset - so that I can actually find the best treatment plan for me.

    I do feel now that I am being blocked from receiving the support I need.

    Perhaps you could start a thread to discuss the labels Allopathy/conventional etc??
     
  2. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

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    On the surface it has nothing to do with homeopathy, but it does have some things in common with it, theoretically. The idea that water can pick up a charge from a substance, have that substance removed completely from the water so that there is not even a single molecule remaining, and have the message be transmitted at a later point. And a very complex message at that. And this has nothing to do with homeopathy?

    This is true, none of this work has anything to do with healing people with water. What it does show, if legitimate, is that water can act as a conductor for sophisticated information, even in the absence of the original source of that charge. That water has a memory. And this study deals with the same problem of high dilution. This is a far more important study into the problem of understanding and validating homeopathy than any of the double-blind placebo studies that were doomed for reasons I've written about in previous posts.


    All good points. However the study still suggests water has a memory and that high dilutions are not nothing. And as for the effect being short lived, that's only according to this study, with their instrumentation. That doesn't mean all trace of the information is wiped out. Perhaps there still is something there. I believe this study potentially offers scientific refutation for some of the most common points levelled at homeopathy. I think that's easy enough to see. Whether this can all be reproduced is another matter. It might all be crap.


    What constitutes ultra-high? According to Montagnier:
    "We find that with DNA, we cannot work at the extremely high dilutions used in homeopathy; we cannot go further than a 10−18 dilution, or we lose the signal. But even at 10−18, you can calculate that there is not a single molecule of DNA left. And yet we detect a signal."

    I would say that as long as there was 'not a single molecule of DNA left' that this qualifies as an ultra-high dilution for our purposes here.

    Okay. I agree this wasn't a study about homeopathy.


    And you think this may have influenced the results?


    I wasn't aware of this. I tried to find it and couldn't. Do you have a link?


    I know it sounds crazy. My old homeopath had a machine that could infuse empty homeopathic tablets with remedy frequencies. The effect was the most powerful experience I've ever had with homeopathy. I don't know how someone could build such a machine if the science was not understood. It's beyond me, but I believe in it with every ounce of my being and wish I could delve into it deeper.


    I think this is a matter of homeopaths misspeaking or our misunderstanding. It's not that the signal gets stronger with dilution, but that it goes deeper. High dilutions are usually used in constitutionals and have a longer lasting, more profound effect than the lower dilutions that are commonly used for acute conditions.



    So now you are finding significance for homeopathy in this study, when it 'disproves' it? As I stated earlier it could be that the message was just rendered undetectable to their equipment. I don't believe this disproves anything.

    One of the criticisms of his work I came across on the wiki page was the following:

    On 20 October 2010, Harriet A. Hall responded specifically to these claims by homeopaths: "Nope. Sorry, guys. It doesn’t. In fact, its findings are inconsistent with homeopathic theory... Homeopaths who believe Montagnier’s study supports homeopathy are only demonstrating their enormous capacity for self-deception." She went on to analyze the studies and pointed out a number of flaws, stating: "...even assuming the results are valid, they tend to discredit homeopathy, not support it...Homeopathy is a system of clinical treatment that can only be validated by in vivo clinical trials."

    We all know it's the idea of homeopathy as inconsistent with mainstream science that marginalizes it. It’s not that it fails sometimes in clinical trials. And how can anyone feel anything but cynisism when it comes to 'clinical trials.' Even with my considerable respect for science, all that comes to mind when I read about this or that substance as being healthy and effective or not is: oh yeah... and no conflicts of interest... wow... good for you...grant money well spent. And this is the science we need to turn to when considering a phenomenon as intriguing as information being stored in water? It’s not so much that I’m passionate about the development of homeopathy, I’m just riled that it seems the science employed at the moment to deal with it is more concerned with quashing it. I think we could do a lot better in this area. I'm sure Montagnier will continue working in this field. They haven't scared him off yet. I’m grateful we have scientists willing to put everything on the line for a new idea. We don’t have it all figured out yet. I’m also grateful to the skeptics who keep everything on the up and up, if that’s indeed what their motivations are.
     
  3. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

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    I second that motion, though I would ask that the split thread be focused just on homeopathy. I understand where you’re coming from, Golden, but I think the us vs them thing becomes counterproductive when it gets out of hand.
     
  4. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    I was going to redo an Asyra machine reading as I am cobbling together my treatment plan. This is digital Homeopathy.

    I believe this is a post from the pro health forum by Rich Vank (I read his posts on PR) but I found his whole attitude excellent:

    *
    * Hi, all.

    I expect that this thread is likely to develop into another knock down, drag out session, but I will just throw in what I know of the Asyra machine.

    I saw the Asyra machine demonstrated in a talk by Dr. W. Lee Cowden at the AutismOne conference in Chicago a couple of years ago. He also reported on his experiences with detoxing people using this machine to diagnose, and a laser-homeopathic technique to treat.

    I don't claim to understand the basic science behind this machine's operation, but I do believe that Dr. Cowden is a reliable and honest person, so I have to take it seriously.

    I think Dr. Cowden now mostly uses the Zyto machine, which I think operates on the same principle.

    As I understand it, what the Asyra machine does at the electronic level is that it measures the DC resistance through the body, from one hand to the other, by passing a small DC current. Thus, it does respond to the galvanic skin resistance, like a lie detector does, but according to my understanding of it, is also claimed that other things influence the body's DC resistance as well, and the machine's operation depends on these other effects.

    While the machine is monitoring the DC resistance of the body, it also impresses AC signals on top of the DC current that it is applying to the body. The AC signals have specific frequencies, and they are applied in sequence, each for a very short time. The machine measures the effect on the DC resistance of impressing the various AC signals. There is a very large number of these AC frequencies used.

    Now, here's the part I can't say I understand: Supposedly these signals of various frequencies stimulate responses in the body, depending on the presence of various substances or conditions in the body, or on the capability of the body to respond to various substances. I think the claim is that the various molecules in the body, which are composed of chemical elements and ions, have dipole moments and also have characteristic vibrational frequencies, determined by the atomic masses of the elements of which they are composed, the type of chemical bonding, and the overall structure of the molecule. Thus, if they are excited at their resonant frequencies, they will absorb energy from the electromagnetic field generated by the AC signal. When this occurs, it affects their behavior. For example, if the molecule is an enzyme, this could affect how it catalyzes a biochemical reaction. Somehow, the changes that are induced then affect the DC resistance of the body.

    That's about as well as I can explain what I think I've heard and read about how these machines work. I think the explanation is at least somewhat plausible, given that it is not a complete explanation.

    As I said, I saw this machine demonstrated. In the particular case involved, Dr. Cowden asked for a volunteer, someone whom he did not know, to come up and undergo an Asyra exam. Several people volunteered, and he picked a woman, who joined him at the podium. Both said they did not know each other, and Dr. Cowden said he did not have any information about this woman's health. She took hold of the electrodes in her hands, and he ran the machine, the scan taking about 20 minutes. Then he read the output, which consisted of a numbered list of results, supposedly the most important ones listed first. The first one listed said that there was a problem in her left jaw. The woman exclaimed that she had just had some dental work done there.

    Dr. Cowden also discussed some case histories, which were very interesting. One involved a guy who had been an auto mechanic for a long time, and had been washing carburetors in gasoline with his bare hands, inhaling the fumes. He was quite ill. The Asyra machine came back with gasoline being his worst toxin.

    The next part of this story is likely to be viewed with even more skepticism by some here than the first part, but I will relate it, nevertheless. As I say, I believe that Dr. Cowden is a reliable person. Dr. Cowden treats some conditions, such as toxicity, by use of a homeopathic form of the specific toxic substance in solution in a clear glass vial. He shines a laser pointer through the solution, which causes the laser beam to form a fan shape, and he sweeps this light over the person's body. The explanation given was that the substance in the vial modulates the light beam with its own characteristic frequencies, and these are then conveyed to the body, and they excite certain specific detox reactions to occur.

    In the gasoline exposure case, he reported that he asked his nurse to take the guy into the next room and perform this scanning on his body. A short time later, both the nurse and the patient came out of the room rapidly and said they could no longer stand to be in there. Dr. Cowden went into the room, and found the air to be filled with gasoline fumes. He opened the windows, shut the door, and everyone was kept out of the room for the rest of the day. The patient felt considerably better after this treatment.

    Well, he told other stories like this, too, but you get the idea.

    Now I'll stand back for the blowback! :)-) Honestly I don't blame anyone for being skeptical about this, but I've been hearing enough about these types of things from people I believe are credible that I take them seriously, and am curious to understand more about how they might work. To me, the trickiest part is the specific coupling of electromagnetic radiation of certain frequencies to biological molecules, and the responses that are provoked in them. This is plausible to me, but I'd like to know more of the specifics of this mechanism.

    Best regards,

    Rich
    [This Message was Edited on 02/02/2010]richvank
    "

    It was because of this post I gave the Asyra macine a whirl. I wrote about it somewhere. I had fears about the pills and didnt follow the protocol correctly. It brought up several definately accurate things plus a few peculiar things.

    edit: In fact the Asyra machine said Lyme was a big problem for me - which was why I started to pay attention to Lyme threads.
     
  5. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    I completely agree. I would love to talk Homeopathy.
     
  6. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

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    I would agree that allopathic connotes western, conventional medicine. I got the gist and don’t feel the need to raise issue with it. Here’s the definition I have on my mac:

    allopathy |əˈläpəTHē|nounthe treatment of disease by conventional means, i.e., with drugs having opposite effects to the symptoms. Often contrastedwith homeopathy.
     
  7. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

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    How very moderate of you.

    I’m sorry, I couldn’t resist. No hard feelings?
     
  8. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

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    It’s probably just that you’re such a fearsome and effective skeptic that we feel a bit brow beaten. Sorry.:)
     
  9. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I am curious about the COWDEN PROTOCOL vs BIONTOLOGY.

    I know someone on the forum who has seen Dr Cowden and done his protocol. I hope this person volunteers some info about their experiences. Will ask.

    I wonder how similar the Asyra machine is to the one they use in biontology, called a Chiren..?
    http://www.biontology.com/biophoton-instruments/chiren/

    I know someone who has been using the biontology protocol and has had some results with eliminating his severe gluten allergies. He also has leukemia, and so far no changes with that. I have been reluctant to try due to cost--$150/session. After so many failed attempts with this kind of stuff, at this point I would like a money back guarantee.

    Has anyone here had clear improvements with either of these?
    SPECIFICALLY I want something for insomnia.
     
    golden likes this.
  10. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    I am just adding this link for a perspective on CFS from the British Homeopathic Society...

    http://www.britishhomeopathic.org/h..._a_to_e/chronic_fatigue_syndrome_may2011.html

    edit: (i never agree 100% with these things - but just editing as I see in 2002 a randomised controlled triple blind study was completed and concluded Homeopathy is more effective than placebo in treating CFS- However, there is probably plenty of flaws in this trial too like all the rest).
     
  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Does homeopathy have an official adverse affects reporting system like the FAERS system for reporting side effects from pharmaceutical drugs?

    Dufresne pointed out that he develops suicidal depression from taking the homeopathic remedy Heel's Nervoheel. See this quote:
    I also experienced an increase in depression from taking a homeopathic remedy.

    Is there any regulatory body in homeopathy, like the FAERS, which can be used to report these homeopathic adverse events and side effects?

    It was found that SSRI antidepressant drugs can also precipitate suicidal thoughts, and because of this, now all SSRI drugs carry a black box warning (the most severe warning) stating this side effect.

    Should homeopathic remedies carry side effects warnings if they have been reported to trigger severe side effects, like Heel's Nervoheel has for Dufresne?
     
    Valentijn likes this.
  12. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    If you would like the thread to be focused on Homeopathy, then I would suggest discussing homeopathy. It would be impossible to split this thread up because many posts contain bits on Homeopathy as well as off-topic bits.


    Why on earth would I have hard feelings? The best kind of learning comes when you are willing to consider both sides of anything. I would say I am a moderate person when it comes to my views. I do have some very strong feelings about some things but don't we all. As far as I am concerned, 'Allopathic' medicine has some good things about it and some bad, so does Alternative Medicine. So it's best to sit on the fence and consider both sides. Sometimes you can get so entrenched in your negative feelings and negative views about something, you fail to see the positive aspects. Conversely, sometimes you can get so entrenched in your positive feelings and positive views about something, you fail to see the negative aspects. And sometimes we can have both positive and negative feelings and views about something at the same time.


    I am not actually a sceptic. I look at both sides. If I am a sceptic, I am sceptical of both sides to a certain extent. Brow beaten? Let's see, what does that mean?
    Now that's insulting as a description. But I don't care because I have done no such thing. Posting an opinion on scientific evidence is not even close to brow-beating. Are we not having a discussion re: homeopathy here. It's odd to me that there has been a heck of a lot of commenting regarding the lack of science and 'Allopathic' medicine but when members mention a lack of science related to homeopathy they get accused of 'brow beating'.

    I would love to discuss why Homeopathy works and why it doesn't work and what things would contribute to it working because it obviously does for some (unfortunately for the next week or so I am going to be working on Forum things which will leave me little time to read and respond to posts). It is merely my opinion that putting down Allopathic medicine in numerous posts does not further this discussion. It's also extremely counterpoductive to belittle people for their beliefs and treatment choices which has occurred on this thread too. I wholeheartedly agree that there are some bad things about 'Allopathic' medicine and especially Big Pharma. But having worked in a hospital and seeing people brought back to life, seeing terribly premature babies survive due to modern medical advances, seeing many medical procedures save people, I am not prepared be negative about medicine. I have seen medical procedures and medications hurt people and contribute to death too. I have had some terrible experiences related to past medical treatment but I have also had some really good benefits too. There are also some very negative things about alternative medicine too but there are many good things too. I have had some good benefit from some supplements and herbal remedies. So, yup, I sit on the fence considering all sides.

    At this point, it's up to members to steer the thread to where they want it to go because like I said it would be extremely difficult to split.
     
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  13. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

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    Absolutely there should be a way of reporting these reactions, and if necessary issuing a warning. What remedy and potency did this to you?
     
  14. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    Might want to be careful advocating for reporting reactions to supplements.

    I think an argument would quickly be made for withdrawing supplements with bad reactions from the market due to not going through clinical trials.
     
  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I consistently experienced some depression within hours of taking an Australian bush flower essence homeopathic remedy that was supposed to be an antidepressant.

    So that's three people in this thread alone who have reported adverse effects from homeopathic preparations: myself, Dufresne and Maryb.
     
  16. Seewell

    Seewell Senior Member

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    four
     
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  17. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    This is helpful advice I think for those on or trying Homeopathic remedies (something I learned anyway)...

    I have had a Homeopath tell me before to tale the remedy only until a response is attained.

    Now on this link it shows we need to determine what type of response we are having. (This is very difficult for me, with supplements etc.)

    But in these cases the first port of call is to ring the Homeopathic Doctor.

    And STOP taking the remedy.

    I think its important to discuss with the HD potential sensitivity issues to the remedy beforehand too.

    http://amylansky.com/wordpress/?p=230
     
  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    So it seems it is not just pharmaceutical drugs that can cause nasty side effects: people here are reporting nasty side effects from homeopathic treatments also.
     
  19. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    People everwhere report a response to Homeopathic Medicines. This can be both good and bad. When it is 'bad' one has to further assess what type of 'bad' response it is....this is copied from the link above and is much easier to read there by clicking on it...
    (edit: Here - http://amylansky.com/wordpress/?p=230)

    While it is true that negative reactions to homeopathic remedies pale in comparison to the havoc sometimes wreaked by conventional medicines (disease caused by conventional drugs — also known as iatrogenic disease — is considered to be the 3rd leading cause of death in the United States), the medicinal energies of homeopathy, though dilute, can sometimes pose difficulties. It is therefore important to know the difference between “good” difficult reactions versus “bad” ones, and how to deal with them. For another discussion about remedy reactions, see my April 2012 newsletter
    or read chapter 8 of Impossible Cure
    .
    The most important thing to remember if you believe you are having a difficult reaction to a remedy is: stop taking the remedy and call your homeopath. This is true whether the reaction is a good one or bad one. If you are experiencing discomfort that you feel has been caused by a remedy, your body does not need any more remedy stimulation at this time. Try to think of the action of a homeopathic remedy as an energetic nudge that sets a ball in motion. As long as the ball is still rolling, there is no need for further nudges.
    (Please note that the discussion below pertains to the treatment of chronic, not acute disease.)
    There are five basic types of troublesome reactions to remedies:
    The “Good” Ones:
    Aggravation of Existing Symptoms
    This means that the remedy has definitely matched and resonated with you, but the dosing was probably just a little too aggressive. When you stop the remedy, the aggravation should pass (usually within a day or two, or at most a couple of weeks) and afterward, you will probably experience a noticeable improvement of your symptoms. During an aggravation, a patient will often feel better within themselves or show other general signs of improvement, despite the aggravated symptoms. Consult with your homeopath if an aggravation lasts for more than a week or is especially troublesome.
    Return of Old Symptoms
    This means that the remedy has lifted the outermost “layer” of your disease state and has now revealed previous layers. For example, your asthma symptoms may have improved but now you have eczema that you previously experienced years ago. This is an excellent development. Sometimes, the old symptoms will also disappear after a while. Or sometimes, further treatment of this previous layer will be needed. Be patient and consult with your homeopath.
    Cleansing Reactions
    These types of reactions involve the expulsion of disease energy from the body. Typical examples include: the development of skin rashes or itching, diarrhea, nasal discharge, or an acute illness such as a cold. Consult with your homeopath.
    The “Bad” Ones:
    All New Strange (But Not Severe) Symptoms Never Experienced Before
    This can occur when a remedy is a partial, but pretty good match. This is especially true if you are otherwise improving, except for these few minor symptoms. The remedy will probably do you good, but has caused a minor “proving” — that is, you are developing symptoms that can be caused by the remedy substance. Discontinue taking the remedy for now. These symptoms should disappear within a few days.
    All New and Severe Symptoms Never Experienced Before
    This can occur when the remedy was incorrect and the potency was too high for you. Stop taking the remedy and consult with your homeopath. The reaction will likely dissipate over a few days. If not, your homeopath will probably recommend antidoting the remedy. Typical methods of antidoting include drinking coffee (a generally weak antidote) or inhaling strong vapors such as eucalyptus or menthol (which usually lessens and sometimes completely stops the aggravation). However, the best antidote is taking a better remedy. In my own experience, the correct remedy can antidote such a reaction within minutes or hours.
    Why do troublesome reactions occur?
    While there are some clues that can indicate a patient’s innate sensitivity to homeopathic remedies, in general, it is impossible for a homeopath to know in advance how a new patient will react to a particular remedy in a particular potency (remedy “strength”). Like everything in homeopathy, each patient is unique in their sensitivity. In my personal experience, some people even react best to specific potencies. For example, some people react positively to a 30c or 1M (which is the same as 1000c) dose, but cannot tolerate a 200c dose. Don’t forget, homeopathy is all about resonance to a remedy and potency, and it all depends on the unique energetic signature of the patient — which, unfortunately, cannot be measured.
    That’s why formulaic approaches, where every patient is given the same fixed regimen, are generally not advisable. Of course, fixed regimens are de rigeur in conventional medicine, and using them certainly makes prescribing easier for the practitioner. But even allopathic doctors are beginning to learn that one size does not fit all. Tailored therapies for cancer, for example, are just beginning to come into vogue.
    Classical homeopaths know well that the choice of a remedy must be tailored to the patient. But dosing management can be even more complex. Because it is logistically impossible for homeopaths to stay in constant contact with their patients, most practitioners develop dosing protocols that work just fine for most of their patients. That is why it is up to you, the patient, to contact your homeopath when a particular protocol does not work for your case.
    So once again: When in doubt: stop taking a remedy and call your homeopath!
     
  20. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    If you are trying to objectively gauge if homeopathic remedies have any benefit for a health condition, or just in general, you should not involve a homeopath, because homeopaths are generally very sympathetic and empathetic individuals, who are often intuitive or spiritually oriented in disposition, and a session with such a person is likely to have strong therapeutic benefits just on its own, akin to psychotherapy or some spiritual therapy. So you'd never know if it was the remedy or the person that made you feel better, or a combination.

    Indeed, when people have some chronic enfeebling disease like ME/CFS, where the mind and spirit can feel weakened, you can gain a huge amount of benefit just from being in the company of an empathetic, intuitive, spiritual person. Their very mind seems soft, warm, comforting and healing.

    And by the same token, unfortunately the rational, intellectual and factual and mind of a doctor, not matter how much they really want to help and cure you, can feel hard, cold, and distant. When we are feeling weak and feeble, we often prefer to be around warm and comforting personalities, not sharply intellectual and factual minds.

    This really is much of the appeal of homeopathy, and other complementary medicines: the spiritual healing they provide. Nevertheless, it is the sharply intellectual and factual minds that cure the vast majority of serious diseases. So I find criticism of the enormous success of conventional medicine inappropriate.
     

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