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Homeopathy and other things.....

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Chris Wick, Jun 28, 2012.

  1. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    An additional point to consider...

    What about all those drugs Scientifically tested (only to Allopathic standatds) - through all the animal testing, through the small human drug trials and then released onto the market as Scientifically proven and effective.

    And then some months or years later - they have to be taken off the market again as they are killing too many people or the side effects are horrendous (i suffered from two drugs this way).

    I believe about 80 or 90 drugs each year are being removed for this.

    The thing is, side effects are widely under reported and not linked to these ' safe scientifically proven' drugs...

    So its amazing drugs get removed at all. The SARRS and Yellow card scheme are going some wYto actually gaining any feedback to what is happening on masse to REAL people when taking this stuff...

    But they havent even started putting that information into a data base to scientifically analyse.

    And yes, the failings of Allopathic medicone does not prove Homeopathy, I understand that. But the joke is that Allopathy ists trying to hold Homeopathy to its poor standards.

    :)
    maryb likes this.
  2. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    Can I just elaborate one point:

    The drug companies list side effects.

    If you suffer a side effect from that drugnot on that list - then its not recognised

    When many people do, there is still no process to recognise it.

    Thats not Science.
  3. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I've never been a fan of standard western allopathic medicine, and certainly not of the pharmaceutical industry. They are the biggest lobby in Congress, and the influence they have over our elected officials, and over the entire field of medicine, is quite twisted and obscene.

    "The pharmaceutical and health products industry has spent more than $800 million in federal lobbying and campaign donations at the federal and state levels in the past seven years, a Center for Public Integrity investigation has found. Its lobbying operation, on which it reports spending more than $675 million, is the biggest in the nation. No other industry has spent more money to sway public policy in that period. Its combined political outlays on lobbying and campaign contributions is topped only by the insurance industry." http://www.publicintegrity.org/2005/07/07/5786/drug-lobby-second-none

    It would not be an exaggeration to say big pharma often get away with murder. Many of their FDA approved drugs have caused serious health problems and some have even killed people.

    Pharmaceuticals are something I try to avoid, because every time I take a pharma drug I'm guaranteed to have at least some adverse effects. Homeopathic remedies, on the other hand, don't do much of anything for me. I gave it my best shot to find one that would make a difference, but after so many failed attempts, I gave up. In my case Chinese herbal medicine and acupuncture have been the best option so far, with the least side effects and the most tangible results.
  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    golden
    Golden, I think you may be incorrectly using the word "allopathic".

    Allopathic describes any treatment whose effects are opposite to the disease symptoms. Allopathy includes pharmaceuticals, but allopathy also includes herbal medicines and vitamins, since herbs and vitamins work by producing effects opposite to the symptoms (for example, vitamin B3 reduces blood pressure by dilating the blood vessels). In fact, pretty much all of the treatments in complementary medicine are allopathic, since they act to produce effects opposite to the symptoms. Homeopathy is the only complementary medicine which produces effects equal to the disease symptoms.

    So you realize that when you speak of (and criticize) allopathic medicine, you are also referring to herbs, vitamins, and pretty much all complementary medicine except homeopathy. So your criticisms apply to nearly all of medicine, conventional and complementary. This is probably not what you intended, but technically this is the case, just by the definition of the word "allopathic".
    Valentijn likes this.
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    golden
    The criticism of conventional medicine, a seemingly frequent theme in your posts, does not in any way provide support or evidence for homeopathy.

    I cannot demonstrate that I am moral by criticizing the morals of another. In fact, criticizing the morals of another is often a means to distract attention from one's own moral failings.

    Thus you should not argue for homeopathy by criticizing conventional medicine (unless you just want to distract attention from homeopathy's failings); rather homeopathy needs to stand on its own merits.
    Valentijn likes this.
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I think you are confusing allopathy with the scientific method. These are entirely different things. The former is a disease treatment approach; the latter is a means of obtaining knowledge by a precise set of methods which date back to Aristotle.

    It is the scientific method that is used to test both allopathy and homeopathy alike. So far, under the scrutiny of the scientific method, the school report for homeopathy has been "must try harder", whereas the school report for allopathy has been "excels in all fields." Though let's be optimistic for homeopathy; perhaps it is a late starter.
    Valentijn likes this.
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Graeme
    I follow and agree with what you are saying (if I understand you correctly): in terms of maximizing the chances of proving that homeopathic treatments can have an effect, you are saying that you think the effects of homeopathic remedies may be very particular to the individual, and so a given individual may find that only one or two specific homeopathic preparations have a strong, unequivocal effect on them, but the rest seem to do nothing for them. Therefore, in order to maximize the chances of demonstrating a real homeopathic effect in a group of individuals, you would ask each individual to select whichever homeopathic remedy (out of the many available) has the strongest effect on them.

    Ideally, you would want to demonstrate a physiological response from a homeopathic preparation — like the tongue blisters that Maryb experienced when taking snake venom homeopathic preparation. That would be a very positive and dramatic proof.

    I also like your idea that certain types of individual may be more constitutionally sensitive to homeopathic remedies than others.
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I just managed to figure out a possible mechanism by which dry homeopathic pills might carry the memory of water (ie, the information supposedly imprinted in water in homeopathic preparations).

    The substance that homeopathic pills are made of is lactose monohydrate. Well, at least I have seen this chemical in the ingredients list of some homeopathic pills I looked at online.

    Now lactose monohydrate is a chemical compound which actually contains water molecules locked into its crystalline structure, as you can see from its chemical formula: C12H22O11· H2O — note the water molecule on the right. This locked-in water is called the water of crystallization; this water of crystallization is found in many crystalline substances.

    Thus conceivably, the water molecules contained within the lactose monohydrate could be the vehicle for carrying the memory of water (ie, carrying the information imprinted in the water of the homeopathic remedy). One drop of water from the source homeopathic remedy is placed on each pill during manufacture, so conceivably, this drop may transfer the water's memory into the water molecules locked within the lactose monohydrate.

    I am not sure if any homeopaths are actually aware that the lactose monohydrate pills they use carry locked-in water of crystallization. I had a quick search online, and there are no homeopaths talking about water of crystallization as the vehicle for carrying the memory of water in dry pills. So maybe homeopaths are not aware of this fact.

    Homeopaths may have just used lactose monohydrate because it is in fact a common base substrate for making medicinal pills of all sorts. Nevertheless, this choice of a lactose monohydrate substrate, even if a coincidence, was a happy one, because this locked-in water may conceivably be preserving the homeopathic information within the dry pill.
    maryb and Graeme like this.
  9. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    You got it. Setting up a study in the form of a drug trial is the wrong way to go about this thing. Those studies never had a chance. And the main focus should be on getting past the whole molecule suspended in a sphere with a radius the size of the distance from the Earth to the Sun: the extreme dilution thing. That’s why I was highlighting the Montagnier study, they accomplished this and nobody’s trying to replicate it. You would think this is the kind of thing that a university would take on.

    What did you think of the acupuncture anaesthetic video? I’d read about this but never seen it. Assuming it’s legit it’s quite something.

    I’ve tried so many times to get people into homeopathy, it has not once produced convincing results. But for some reason it works really well with pets, like almost every time. I wonder if really doubtful people don’t somehow obviate the effect. Just as a placebo can work, perhaps it’s not that hard to override the influence of something one doesn’t believe in. I remember reading of Baba Ram Das going over to India with a whole bunch of blotter acid and giving it to the locals. There was a sage of some sort there who ate a ridiculous amount of the stuff and showed no discernible effect, he just laughed at the notion that he would allow this stuff to affect him.

    When I tried reiki, acupuncture, homeopathy, energy pendents filled with sea kelp, etc I was actually curious and I suspended my disbelief based on the people I trusted who were endorsing them. I remember thinking what would this mean if legit. Unfortunately I’ve a really tough time making use of any of these therapies, but to know that there is some really weird stuff out there that I can perceive allows me to live with a bit more of a sense of wonder. Scientists have discovered most of this amazing stuff, but these guys are the thinkers and they should be trying challenge their foundations from time to time. I’m actually excited at the idea that I could learn something new that could change much about the way I perceive the world. I can’t believe they’re not chomping at the bit to replicate Montagnier’s work. It's the politics of the establishment that is to blame for this. And in this realm that’s pharmaceutical giants -I’m with Golden on this one. I recognize their accomplishments but they’ve done a fair bit of damage in retarding certain aspects of scientific development, at least the way I see it. That’s really unfortunate.
  10. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    I was tempted to suggest in a far more lay fashion that there was some water in there. The pellets that are commonly bought in homeopathy stores are lactose something or other. When I think milk I think water content.

    Incidentally substances like crystals and, believe it or not, sea kelp can emit energy. Who’s to say the information is not being transferred to a solid?
  11. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    I am at a loss to understand what Montagnier's work has to do with Homeopathy. He said that it had nothing to with homeopathy.

    Basically his research said that electromagnetic signals could be detected from bacterial DNA. These signals were extremely short-lived. The research may have been flawed for many reasons. One can only extrapolate his findings, if valid, to bacterial DNA. Homeopathic preparations do not contain bacterial DNA. Also, since the effect was so short-lived (several to 48 hours), if there was some kind of 'memory' the effect would be lost because most homeopathic preparations sit on store shelves for days, weeks, months.

    Other problems include:

    The research did not use ultra-high dilutions. Bacterial DNA could be detected in his samples. With homeopathic remedies, it's often true that none of the original substances are detectable.

    Montagnier claimed that the signals are only given off by pathogenic bacteria. He did not test homeopathic substances.

    There is no control for the equipment picking up extraneous radio frequencies.

    The research was replicated using the same device used in his experiment and no signals were detected.

    The device he used was the same one used by Benveniste who claimed he could digitalize homeopathic signals and send them by email. This is a crazy nutty claim.

    The research indicated that at the highest dilutions no effects were discernible (and he did not use the ultra-high dilutions of homeopathic remedies). This is directly against what homeopaths claim -- the effect is stronger at higher dilutions. Montagnier found as the dilutions increased the signal was lost.


    Graeme:

    The Montagnier study did actually disproved the dilution idea because the effect disappeared at high dilutions. The study has been replicated and no effect was found at all.

    More importantly:

    The findings do not validate homeopathy because the study did not show that if water has memory that this memory translates into a homeopathic substance having specific therapeutic effects on the human body. The only thing this study says is that pathogenic bacteria emit electromagnetic signals. And whether this is true has yet to be proven. It says nothing about the effectiveness of homeopathy.
    Valentijn likes this.
  12. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    I am glad you have found something DB that has helped you. In my book by Alison Adams it states "It is unclear exactly how 'conventional' medicine earned that epithet since Traditional Chinese Medicine is believed by some to have been around for 12,000 years and 'conventional' medicine probably only for the last century or so!

    For this reason, conventional or orthadox medicine will be referred to as Allopathic ...

    The two main thrusts of Allopathic medicine are to remove the offending body part (surgery) or to 'block' the symptoms of disease chemically using pharmaceuticals. This dominant allopathic view is imposed by law in many instances..."(p12)

    Whilst language is constantly in a state of flux, I think the term Allopathy best captures that branch of medicine - I suppose it could be called unholistic , but I prefer to use the clear and widely used term Allopathy.

    All you can do is give a treatment your best shot...

    But with '*Adverse reactions to properly prescribed pharmaceuticals killing more than 10,000 people each year in the UK and more than 100,000 a year in the USA. This costs the NHS in the UK nearly half a billion pounds a year.

    *Pharmaceuticals are, by definition, TOXIC - they have to be to get a licence! The 'safe' dose is calculated from the lethal dose, which kills 50% of the laboratory rats (LD50)

    *All pharmaceuticals work by suppressing symptoms temporarily and all pharmaceuticals have unwanted side effects that are often mistaken for other conditions and treated with....more pharmaceuticals! The interests of pharmaceutical companies are very well served by having lifelong customers dependent on their products.
    (p14)

    Herbs however, I respect.

    The Vet I will be seeing in fact, is an expert in Homeopathy, Herbs, Acupuncture, Chiropractor(y!), bach flower remedies plus a few other things. He was initially a long term Allopathic Vet - but had experienced that world and moved away from it. He found he gets excellent results with Holistic medicine. (I may have a dash of everything).

    I think there are a lot of problems with some Homeopaths...and of course there are additional problems..

    For example there are Allopathic Doctors who have done a short Homeopathic course and they think they are homeopaths. They then prescribe an armful of drugs and perhaps a Homeopathic remedy... Perhaps this is for a homeopathic reason, perhaps it is for an Allopathic placebo (to keep the patient happy, or as an additional special treatment, or perhaps its just a way to make more money by selling another product...

    I am happy if that helps a certain group of people - but this isnt the type of Homeopath I would want. And so its worth thinking about the Homeopath you choose.

    I have chosen a Vet with excellent clinical results because I think he will be good at getting past shallow judgements at my inability perhaps to communicate effectively my symptoms (which happened with one of my homeopath experiences - i was unhappy with) ...

    And so the wrong remedy is prescribed. I have had some remarkable success with Homeopathy and my animals - but not so much me!

    I am going to put it to him all the theories and include the Lyme info too. See what he says. I think he does several branches of Homeopathy so thats good too.

    A G.P. was the best Ancupuncture experience I ever had! He was amazing. It was on the NHS.

    I think it was a hobby of his. He did tge acupuncture whilst he saw a couple more patients for their Allopathic consultations, and came back in to see me. It was noticeable how it helped.

    However I tried Chinese Acupuncture with about a million needles in my back and it did not help.

    Years later again a Nurse did Acupuncture and I swear she was enjoying hurting me. It did really hurt too. I went back as well! But it did not help.

    Bizarrely though, I think Accupressure is VERY helpful and I do gain relief from it. Also Ear Acupressure can be heavenly.
    (self applied and FREE) :)

    So that is all contradictory really.
  13. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    DB - i mixed up a general post with a personal post (specifically to you) - sorry about that.
  14. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    Heyyy have you answered you own question? Well done:) But I did know it would be something like that - just couldn't put it into words;):p
  15. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    Many commercially produced Homeopathically prepared pillules

    do contain Lactose.
  16. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    This is a Homeopathic Doctor I would not go to...

    http://www.homeopathicquestions.com/sub1/page3.html

    I wish though every medic in whatever modality would write their thoughts and understandings on each ailment...life would be so much easier.

    I am considering not mentioning ME after reading that.
  17. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    Is she a 'Homeopathic Doctor' or a doctor that practices homeopathy?
  18. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    This is where hats get mixed up I think - leading to confused consent rather than informed consent.

    I dont know whether she would come under integrative medicine.

    She is a G.P. - I get that vibe abundantly from the language used to descibe C.F.S. (C.F.S)

    I dont know how much she is constrained by her title G.P.

    This poses ethical questions for those of us who want to embrace Homeopathy and be treated Homeopathically...

    It doesnt really sound like Homeopathic philosophy. It sounds like an Allopathic mindset (nothing wrong with that) - with some homeopathy applied in an Allopathic way...

    I think I am going to a Vet in the hopes that he wont mention 'positive thinking' or 're-assurance' etc. if you see what I mean.

    'unlucky'..... Grrrrrrrr
  19. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    I have never met a person diagnosed as depressed with a sore throat being part of the diagnosis...

    Is this true?
  20. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    I have no idea what you mean by 'Allopathic mindset'. You use the term 'allopathic' often but in a very confusing way. Many Homeopaths use the term 'Allopathic' with the intent of being derogatory.

    It seems that you are constantly posting about all the negatives about 'allopathic' medicine on a thread about homeopathy which muddies the water to a large extent. The problems with 'allopathic' medicine have nothing to do with the efficacy of homeopathy. It's better to sit on the fence listening to both sides, rather to be on one side casting stones at the other.

    Scientifically, I don't think the water memory theory has evidence to support it and the dilution aspect is not supported. Obviously, people have found it works, there has to be a reason why and even if there is no apparent reason we should never discount a person's experiences. The reason is not because 'allopathic' medicine is awful and kills people. I would agree there are tons of issues with the medical system, huge problems with Big Pharma, etc, etc but there are also problems with alternative medicine too.
    Valentijn likes this.

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