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Homeopathy and other things.....

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Chris Wick, Jun 28, 2012.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Are you telling me you don't know that the whole science of electromagnetic waves, which was formalized by the brilliant mathematical mind of James Clerk Maxwell, involves vibrations? Every time you use a cell phone or tune into a radio station, you are listening to sounds that have been transmitted through the air using electromagnetic vibrations.

    And all silicon chip micro-electronics is based on quantum mechanics, which involves vibrations in something called the wave function Ψ, which is mathematically described by the Schrodinger equation.

    There are numerous other areas of science in which vibration is fundamental. In each of these areas, the nature of those vibrations has been precisely described using mathematical equations, and the dynamics of those vibrations is very well understood.

    And vice versa: I have seen anti-science and pseudoscientific interjections posted on the more scientific threads in the PR forums (which is the majority of them). One of the things I like about PR is that it tends to be a serious, enlightened, rational and no-nonsense forum, where if you ask someone "Does this treatment really work" or "What's the evidence for that", they are usually very happy and capable of giving you an answer. It keeps the forum honest, and free of nonsense.


    I was being serious, not sarcastic at all. I think if your body does respond in this very visible way to a homeopathic treatment, it would provide great evidence for homeopathy.

    If I could get my tongue to blister after taking a homeopathic remedy, I'd be straight off to see James Randi, to collect my $1million!

    That is the kind of evidence you would want, if you are going to prove a homeopathic effect exists: you would want a homeopathic preparation to produce a definitive, blatantly observable effect in the body each time you took it. Not some minuscule effect, which might well be just placebo.
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    That is the kind of information I find very useful. I know when Dreambirdie says she had no significant benefits from any of the 12 homeopathic constitutional remedies she tried, this is a straightforward and honest reply. It's not based on being pro- or anti-, it's just based on the truth; based on astute and sensitive observation.
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  3. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Thank you. I try to be honest as I can be about my experiences with ALL the remedies and treatments I have tried. So far, as you can see in my post, there's not very many that get even a passing grade. This is both scary and sad.


    In reality what matters most is HOW WELL DOES IT WORK, and how many people have had clear positive improvements from taking it. I have not heard of anyone yet being cured of ME (or greatly benefited) by homeopathy. I personally would not invest any more time or money in pursuing that kind of treatment. If someone else does, then that's their prerogative.
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  4. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Which means it isn't "Science". Science is science. There is not "normal science" and "homeopathic science". If it is not conforming to the standards of science, it is not science. Maybe you think it's just as valid as science, and I'm fine with that ... but it still isn't science.

    In the frame of actual science, homeopathy would not even be a "theory" - theory's are well-proven already and have held up well to rigorous examination. At best it is "The Hypothesis of Homeopathy", though it has likely been too well disproven to even be called that.

    I have no problem tolerating homeopathy, but when you call it a science you are you are using the word inappropriately and displaying a bad misunderstanding of science. So while I am happy to tolerate your views, usually without comment even when I disagree, I am not inclined to let such a fundamental misinformation stand unchallenged.

    If you need an alternative to using the word "science" which still sounds nice, I would suggest "system" or "practice".
    Hip likes this.
  5. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I agree that the fundamentalist approach to remedies is not limited to homeopathy. People who get involved in multi-level marketing schemes are among the worst "pushers" of their agendas and products. I've tried several of these cure-all snake oils over the years: Mannatec, blue green algae, magnetic beds, and Sunrider herbs are the ones I remember off the top of my head. As it turned out, the first three made me feel much worse. Sunrider had some formulas that were minimally helpful, but they were so ridiculously overpriced, that I found paying an herbalist to make me some similar formulas was actually cheaper.

    Most recently I tried a product called Laminine, which a friend of mine claimed had cured her of severe insomnia and was helping everybody else she knew with every ailment they had. The product is allegedly made from “partially incubated, fertilized eggs – specifically 9-day-old fertilized eggs" which "contain all the nutrients required to start a new life. This includes vitamins, minerals and proteins, as well as important defense factors, growth factors, hormones and other biologically active components.” The nausea I experienced for several hours after taking this stuff was godawful, but I persisted for a week in spite of that. (I would try ANYTHING for my severe insomnia, even standing on my head and gargling with peanut butter!) On my 7th day taking the Laminine, I ended up with a bout of very scary heart palpitations in the middle of the night. No thank you to any more of that. I returned the rest of the product to my friend and added Laminine to my list of worthless remedies.

    Having long term ME brings with it a certain amount of desperation for answers and relief. But unfortunately, that makes us all so vulnerable to every Tom, Dick and Harriet that thinks they have that answer. I think we would all do well to remember the phrase CAVEAT EMPTOR (let the buyer beware), and proceed with a good amount of caution and skepticism.
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  6. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    Here’s a good one on homeopathy and placebo by Goldacre


    We all understand the molecular effect of drugs. But this guy is a fantastic lecturer and makes all the right points for his case. It's worth listening to. And, yes, I'd say he's fair-minded, limiting his answers to the science he chooses to illustrate the incredulity he seeks to spread. I respect these Skeptics, they’re honest, reasonable and applying the scientific method. James Randi is not. And I’m lucky enough to have foreknowledge of the eventual outcome and guess what, Golden, Wayne, I and millions of others end up winning this argument.

    Sucsession. Things are spoiled by contamination. He uses the Queen’s bladder as an example. Not a good one to refute the effects of homeopathy by the standards of homeopathy, but I credit him for humour.

    Hip, he also offers the explanation commonly given by homeopaths as to how the remedy can be transferred into a dry pill if the science depends on the vibrational imprint on water. According to the majority of homeopaths he interviewed, the frequency just can be. I don't think this should stand out as an added piece in the arsenal against homeopathy. It's just as scientifically implausible as the the first position of an imprint on water.

    The part I believe Golden is referring to, or perhaps not, is at 17:25. He talks about giving the animals an immune system suppressant in water with flavour, conditioning them to this (I assume), and then taking the immune suppressant out and giving them the same flavoured water and reproducing the same effect. This is placebo effect after conditioning. This proves nothing more than Pavlov.

    None of this or any of his explanations about homeopathy explain why I experience a negative effect from most homeopathic remedies.

    If you want to know why the studies don't show positive results, it might be because:

    a) homeopathy is seldom prescribed properly, one often has to go back until they find the right remedy. That'll give you a 50% failure rate from the start.

    b) it just doesn't work very well for a large percentage of the public.

    (Dietrich Klinghardt claims autistic patients are especially sensitive to it. If this is true I imagine this applies to ME/CFS patients as well. The downside here, for me, anyways, is that the positive effect leads to an exacerbation of excitotoxicity after a short time. This effect could probably be gauged by Dr Cheney's ETM setup given enough time -come to think of it maybe that's how I could take a million bucks from James Randi. I should add that this effect is apparent to me after administration of the offending substance: in the case of MB12 or CoQ10 (and I'm in the serious minority for being able to identify this universal response among ME/CFS patients), several hours later: in the case, of say, a 30c dose of sulfur, my constitutional, a day or so later. If this would be proved it would suggest an idea other than that based on molecular influence, seeing as this dilution is equivalent to a single molecule suspended in a sphere produced by the radius of the Earth to the Sun. I wonder if the Skeptics' reasoning will attempt to hold on to their Newtonian beliefs in this domain should this ever be proved. If they do they might want to start reading the astrology page seeing as that pseudoscience depends on gravitational pull of the planets in various positions. I would think a replication of the Montagnier study would arouse some healthy theorizing and debate. I'll also add that this negative effect of mine is noticeable following meditation, acupuncture, and reiki. This is not explainable by placebo. Though I suppose it could be that I'm having a bad reaction to the placebo effect. Then maybe I really am a malingerer and I don't want to get well. Or perhaps I'm so desirous of justifying belief in something beyond our understanding that I'm intentionally producing negative effects.

    One last thing on negative effects. When I take the dry pill form of the intellectually protected ingredients in Heel's Nervoheel I become severely depressed, even suicidal. This can be reproduced with a single dose. I'll just add another point I'd like to make about James Randi's stupid demonstrations of him taking a bottle of homeopathic sleep aids. You're not supposed to down a bottle, you're supposed to place the dose under your tongue. But this is the kind of bullshit I expect from this character. He's no interest in fairly testing homeopathy.

    I think the best testament to the validity of homeopathy is if it was just placebo, wouldn't it have gone the way of snake oil?
  7. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    So, yeah, if you really want to prove Homeopathy get 50 people who know a remedy and can pick it out of a line-up of effective and randomly interspersed placebos or, better yet, remedies that produce negative effects. Then get 50 people to guinea pig all placebos. It’ll be interesting to compare the placebo effects to the other side of the study. The homeopathic users will be a hands down winner. I imagine it’ll be tough for Skeptics to poo-poo this one. It’ll be even more of a joy for us in the know who will get to watch the Skeptics endeavour to wrap their heads around the idea, confidently offering up the exact same far-reaching ‘pseudo-science’ arguments homeopaths have humbly been pointing to. :)

    So this study will
    a) prove there is something to ‘just water and alcohol
    b) it’ll prove a negligible placebo effect
    c) and it will also prove the effectiveness
    Check and Mate!

    Now all I have to do is organize this thing and send it to Randi for rejection. I hope he has to publish all his challenges.
  8. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    And Hip, acupuncture is due to endorphin release from the pain of putting in the needles? First of all they don’t hurt. Secondly they perform invasive surgeries in Japan using nothing more than acupuncture and the patient doesn’t feel a thing. Heroin can’t even do that. A good account of acupuncture can be found in the following book.

    http://www.amazon.com/Body-Electric-Electromagnetism-Foundation-Life/dp/0688069711

    There actually is empirical evidence to support acupuncture. It comes down to the fact that we’re electric. Chakras (actually measurable) act as signal boosters along nerves. Using these well studied points all over the body they can influence many systems. It’s not just painkilling. What boggles my mind is they discovered these points eons ago long before any kind of electrical measurement was available.


    They must have stuck some serious needles in him to generate that painkilling response from endogenous endorphins. ;)
  9. Seewell

    Seewell Senior Member

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    I try to remain open to different treatments,as i know there is more to this life than what science can prove.

    Have tryed Homeopathy and i did get a negative effect,and some other strange things going on.
    I was experimenting with homeopathy at the time with individual HHV remedys.
    I know that what was happening to me was more than just the effects of water,and a little alcohol.
    And would not be afraid to try it again.
    I have tryed many things on my search to beat this bloody illness.And am very cynical about anything i try.
    I do not sit there and think this is going to work.As i may have in the early days of this illness(placebo)

    The video looks interesting.will watch it later.
  10. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    I am sorry but I don't understand what you are saying here, it's very confusing.
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  11. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    What parts do you understand Kina, and where in particular are you struggling...

    this information always helps when people try to help people further understand something.

    :)
  12. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    This part:

    First of all, what would the hypothesis and null hypothesis be for this one.
    If you get 50 people who 'know' a remedy -- how do operationally define what 'knowing' a remedy means, how would you test this? What does 'pick it out of a line-up of effective...' mean? What does 'guinea pig' all placebos mean? How does one test this effectively? How would you control for extraneous variables? How can one predict results of this? Is this a test of homeopathy, placebos, homeopathic users?

    It's just too confusing as it is written.
  13. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    So you follow me, Golden? I do recognize that my writing can be a bit confusing at times. I too often try to explain more than I should in a single sentence. I’m working on that. Still, if one takes their time with it it should be apparent what I’m suggesting. I find it hard to believe an obviously bright woman like Kina would have trouble with it. And I don’t mean anything nasty by this. Perhaps it is a matter of perspective and the skeptics are somehow not able to see the reason in this. Thanks for the support, girlfriend. :thumbsup:
  14. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    Graeme

    I am having trouble with it. It has nothing to do with perspective, it really isn't clear. It has nothing to do with being sceptical and posting digs at 'sceptics' is not clearing things up. Did you not just comment that your writing can be confusing at times and it is confusing.

    I am very interested in what you think will 'prove' homeopathy. Could you clarify your comments. Thanks.
  15. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    So far we have established tha within The Allopathic branch of medicine, 85% of it can not be backed up by 'science'. That figure comes from the BMJ itself. That means by Allopathic Standards etc. only 15% of it in current use has ANY science to back it up.

    Think about that. ....for a moment.


    Then we have established in this thread for those methods apparently passing the Allopathic Gold Standard Scientific approaches, that those trials are seriously flawed plus a rife amount of fraud in these trials means thete is nothing much scientific about them.
    There are too many tactics that have been used to con patients that its too hard to detail. Placebo fraud, trial fraud... poorly designed trials etc.

    There is very little if any scientific basis to TAKING MORE than ONE drug at a time!!!
    And yet how common has this Unscientific practice been in Allopathy.

    Whilst I dont find M.E. people particularly vulnerable as that phrase is generally used for people with mental health problems or old people with dementia etc... As a society I believe we have become totally vulnerable to all this Allopathic fraud under the guise of 'Science' - My whole family has died from it in fact.

    Homeopathy is a Science and I have used the term correctly. There are published papers in Allopathic jourals outlining positive outcomes in Allopathic trials.

    However Surgery has never undergone double blind placebo trials - does that mean its not Science?

    No. It does not. It means The branch of Surgery has its own methods.

    The branch of Homeopathic Medicine also needs its own methods because its aim is to cure the whole individusl, whereas the aim of Allopathic medicine is to suppress symptoms.

    I do have more respect for 'functional medicine' and ecological medicine, and I believe these are quite new branches - common sense.


    In my M.E. book by Alison Adams:

    "THE trouble with drugs,

    Until the 1920's, all medicine had been naturopathic (natural) and the doctors of the time only had a handful of drugs at their disposal. Within 90years the pharmaceutical industry has grown from these modest beginnings to become one one of the most biggest and profitable industries in the world.

    Annual global sales currently approach 3 TRILLION dollars and this owes a great deal to the intervention of two billionaires.

    A century ago JOHN D ROCKEFELLAR & ANDREW CARNEGIE sought to invest their wealth in the emerging pharmaceutical industry.

    By controlling funding they succeeded in having all the medical schools in the USA that did not exclusively promote the pharmaceutical approach closed down.

    Half of this behemoths custom is now currently in the USA with five billion prescriptions being filled each year. Europe comes a poor second and the developing world represents a rapidly growing market.

    The medical profession and the pharmaceutical industry have now become so mutually interdependent that many regard the relationship as unhealthy and not necessarily operated in the HIGHEST interests of patients. Healthcare has effectively become the illness business. In fact, even Dr Halfdan Mahler, a former Director General of the World Health Organization, stated in 1984

    "The major and most expensive part of medical knowledge as applied today appears to be operated more for the satisfaction of the health PROFESSIONS than for the benefit of the consumers of health care"
    mpanies EMPLOY some pretty sharp business practices and relentless lobbying to both protect and expand their market share, as is modern business practice.

    By some reckonings, there are nearly as many pharmaceutical representatives as doctors in the USA and over 100,000 pharmaceutical lobbyists relentlessly making representations to members of Congress. Finally, slick marketing and advertising campaigns mean that we are collectively held in thrall to the promise the pharmaceutical approacj seems to offer.


    It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on NOT understanding it - Upton Sinclair...


    "

    That is all on page 13 of Chronic Fatigue, ME and Fibromyalgia by Alison Adams...

    It goes on to explain further the non-science of pharmaceutical research and development, animal testing and finishes the chapter with the words Allopathic medicine uses to 'legitimize (or disguise) the state of their ignoramce on some matters :

    IDIOPATHIC - This is the term used to refer to a disease with a cause that modern medicine does not understand.

    CHRONIC - A disease that persists for a long ime, will not usually spontaneously disappear and cannot be cured using Allopathic Modalities.

    IATROGENIC - This refers to a state of ill health or harmful consequences resulting from the actions of physicians or other health professions and represents the leading cause of death in the US.

    PSYCHOSOMATIC - This is an illness whose symptoms are believed to be caused by the mental processes of the sufferer and is usually applied where a physiological cause cannot be identified. Essentially, this term is used for illnesses that allopathic medicine doesnt understand and is a measure of our current ignorance. This term is often used to imply that the disease or symptom is imagined.

    INCURABLE - This word does not exist in any indigenous language and translates as 'I do not know how to cure you' WHIC is a wholly Allopathic CONCEPT. The very word 'Cancer' strikes fear into the hearts of many being told by an expert in a White coat that you have a terminal illness may induce the nacebo effect.

    SPONTANEOUS REMISSION This refers to the sudden and dramatic improvement in a condition for reasons that Allopathic medicine doesnt understand.

    (thar was page 18)"

    NOW, I need to rest my index finger!!! A lot of typing - I can see a bit of text has misplaced itself and appears below - There is no chance of me being able to edit that - hey ho! :)


    Doctors write prescriptions for the drugs and so the pharmaceutical companies compete to influence the doctors. The pharmaceutical co
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  16. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    Sorry about that. It’s my style to take a little liberty with my descriptions. And sometimes my writing gets overly dense and poorly articulated.

    First off I find all of the studies of homeopathy thus far to have been lacking. The main problem with acceptance of homeopathy is the matter of the dilutions. We all understand this can’t be explained by today's science. You would think a study like that of Nobel Prize winner, Luc Montagnier, would provoke further inquiries, or even that Irish study. These are first class scientists and somehow their studies with enormous implications that beg further trials are somehow ignored for years on end.

    Anyway I believe my study would sort out the dilution problem. If we can confirm that some people can consistently identify the remedy of their choice in a 30c dilution in a double blind placebo trial then we would have to acknowledge that there is something going on that we don’t understand. This problem has to be surmounted.

    Now if the placebos for this group were actually remedies the person being tested believed to affect them negatively it would actually be easier to differentiate the two. After all they’re just water right? As far as the skeptics are concerned it’s all placebo.

    So for clarity here, the first 50 people are able to select the remedies they believe they can identify. It’s for the sake of differentiation that we make one an expected positive response and the other a negative (and yes, there are negative responses in homeopathy) as decided by those people selected, by me, who can identify 30c dilutions.

    The other 50 people would just be present to test the placebo effect of the study’s design so that it can be compared to the other group.

    The hypothesis would be that certain people can detect a 30c dilution. The second point is that they receive benifit from said dilution, while they experienced negative symptoms as the result of the other. Of course this study would have to be conducted over the span of many months.

    ...guinea pig the placebos -I would have thought would be fairly easy to interpret: guinea pigs just take whatever they’re given, they’re experimented on. Translation: the other 50 would receive nothing but placebo through the entire study.

    Know a remedy means they have experience with it and know how it affects them.

    Pick it out of a line-up means identify against a placebo in a double blind trial.

    As for:

    Would you like an entire outline of the study? Can you not get the general idea? Or are you trying to discourage me. All I’m trying to give you is the gist of a study that would produce a positive, undeniable result that couldn’t be arrived at by chance.


    Is this a test of homeopathy, placebos, homeopathic users?

    You got this part! All the above.
  17. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    I think there are a few digs, some subtle, some not so subtle coming from both sides of this thread. I can take my end without getting too flustered. I apologize if I’ve offended anyone here thus far. I prize reason and I appreciate skeptics. And for the record Kina, and I’m not trying to be passive aggressive, but I’ve long admired your clear and easy to read writing style. I know good writing when I see it, execution is another matter.
  18. Graeme

    Graeme almost there...

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    Again, it’s my belief that 50% of the population can’t discern any benefit from homeopathy. Those that can are in the minority, but when they can they will pick out the actual remedy against placebo every single time, or close to that. The studies in the past have a homeopath prescribing remedies for the first time. Those first prescriptions are often wrong.

    You can’t get to the bottom of this issue without proving there’s something going on in the water and the only way of accomplishing this is by designing a study that has every chance at succeeding without leaving room for a false positive result. I think the faults outlined in the above paragraph show how the ‘no better than placebo’ results come back. I believe a study designed along the lines of my broad strokes would achieve this.
  19. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    I think the best proof is out in the field on real people.

    I just think Allopathy is so flawed in so many ways, its silly to try to force all other modalities to comply with its 'trials'.

    Homeopathic Vets are good places to look. In fact I have chosen a Homeopathic Vet as my new practitioner :) ha ha...

    But what I mean is usually the animal has undergone all sorts of different drug therapies with differing results - temporary relief of symptoms followed by a worsening or new symptoms manifesting etc..

    And it is those cases which the Allopathic Vet has said to put down and there is nothing to be done etc etc which when a Homeopathic Vetc cures them are a prooving in itself.

    That reminds me - 'proving' ...
  20. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    No, that has not been established. It's your expressed opinion. Personally I take most of what the BMJ or any other journal says with a grain of salt.


    Unethical idiots conducting scientific trials badly does not prove homeopathy to any extent. At best it proves that some scientific trials are of very poor quality.

    Possibly one or two poorly conducted trials with a small number of participants and a strong placebo effect. The vast majority of homeopathic studies conducted in a scientific manner have disproven homeopathy. Ergo, whatever homeopathy is, it is not scientific and it is not a science.

    Science is not allopathic versus homeopathic, or anything else. It's a system. And that system has disproven homeopathy. So either 1) homeopathy is a failure, or 2) homeopathy is something other than a science.

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