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Homeopathy and other things.....

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Chris Wick, Jun 28, 2012.

  1. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi Hip,

    I found most of your comments in your recent posts quite interesting (and refreshing). I can relate to much of what you've written, because so many of your thoughts are similar to mine when I first happened across homeopathy and other vibrational medicines/therapies many years ago.

    I think a key word to consider is vibrational. From my own understanding, it doesn't really mesh well with the "Newtonian" model of modern medicine. So many vociferous arguments against homeopathic remedies have to do with them not having any molecules left in the preparation, as if that is supposedly the modus operendi for its purported effectiveness. It isn't. It all has to do with vibrations, and the effects it can have on our bodies.

    There are many kinds of vibrational therapies that can be considered besides homeopathy, such as herbs, gemstones, sound, color, light, even prayer. So much has been made in various literature in recent years about how bad "red meat" is, and that it causes so many diseases. My own take is that eating red meat has less to do with its inherent "badness", and more to do with how animals are treated inhumanely (non-harmonious vibrations) before the meat ends up on our tables. I've heard (and believe) that saying a prayer, or blessing our food before a meal can actually change the vibrations of what we eat, and negate most or all of its negative influences.

    Obviously, most aspects of vibrational medicine are so contrary to modern medicine perspective, that it's unlikely much research will ever be done in this area. Plus, there's really not a lot of money to be made, even if its efficacy were somehow proven. I'm not sure if you're aware that some veterinarians use homeopathy almost exclusively in their practice, and almost always use it before resorting to various drug treatments. Obviously, they've seen the results, and continue to have pet owners seeking them out. Plus, there's no placebo effects to consider when it comes to treating animals. Perhaps I'll do a google search, and try to find some of the videos I've seen of animals before and after receiving a homeopathic remedy. Some are pretty amazing.
    golden, Seewell and Graeme like this.
  2. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    Wayne,

    Somewhere along the line I watched an NHS youtube type thing on Placebo...

    It wasnt all bad.

    But I think the current Skeptic line was that Animals do have a placebo response.

    They know what to expect when receiving a homeopathic pill, they get a feeling from their 'owners' who are calm and their confidence in the animal getting better will be picked up by the animal etc.

    It may have been Goldberg...

    Sorry I cant find the clip.
  3. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    Having difficulty editing my above post so just editing here:

    Its Ben Goldacre on The Placebo on youtube - NHS Choices. I cant watch youtube currently but whilst he was asserting Homeopathy is placebo I recall he explains why it works also for animals.
  4. perchance dreamer

    perchance dreamer Senior Member

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    I used to have a cat who responded well to Feliway (fake feline pheromones). It stopped her from pooping on the floor.

    I told a friend that, and she scoffed it was probably a placebo effect my cat was experiencing.

    I've always thought that placebo assumes knowing what a product is supposed to do. My cat wasn't smart enough to understand what Feliway was! I doubt animals experience placebo the way humans do.
    Jarod and Wayne like this.
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I am afraid you might be reading your own thoughts into my comments, Wayne, as don't really go for this "vibrational medicine" idea which is often found in New Age literature. The concept is simply too vague: to say "it is all to do with vibrations" doesn't really get you anywhere. And anyway, this is often not even true: the health benefits of herbs are not to do with vibrations, but derive from the biochemical effects of the active chemical constituents of the herbs; and the benefits of acupuncture mostly likely derive from endorphin release that the needles provoke, rather than any vibration. Sorry to throw water on your fire, I know it's a seductive idea.

    It is conceivable that some type of molecular oscillations might be behind the supposed homeopathic effect; but other factors that are considered in theoretical analyses of homeopathy include: water molecule clusters, nano-bubbles, and silicate nano-particles deriving from the glass of the bottle, and none of these are to do with vibrations.

    Of course, oscillations of various sorts do form a large part of science, but oscillations are not a universal feature of all phenomena.
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    My curiosity has also diminished hugely since getting ME/CFS. Though I still have enough to get me excited and interested about medical research connected to ME/CFS. But like you, I am more limited, and don't have the mental energy to follow the range of interests I previously had.


    I totally agree, Valentijn. I used to be very interested in Zen meditation and Zen literature (before I got ME/CFS, which unfortunately seemed wipe out the more spiritual side of my mind).

    If an individual gets into homeopathy as some sort of spiritual pursuit, that is completely valid and understandable.

    However, when homeopaths present their subject as a science, they then need to faithfully follow the rules and methodologies of science. In particular, if they fail to provide solid empirical evidence, either they try harder to generate good solid evidence (and they certainly do need to try harder), or else they should admit and publish their negative results. But homeopaths should not pull out some contrived mystical explanation for why they cannot produce good evidence.

    Homeopathy, it seems, is not unlike Medieval alchemy, which was part spiritual pursuit, and part a fledgling science that would eventual turn into modern chemistry. Trying to prize out the solid scientific truth, if there is any, from the mysticism of homeopathy may be just as hard as plucking out modern chemistry from alchemy was.
    Valentijn likes this.
  7. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    If you google subconscous, unconscious or nonconsciuos placebo there are theories that placebo does not need to work on a conscious level.

    Goldacre proposes its enough that the 'owner' knows about the medicine.
  8. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    Does one develope a tolerance to these, or can they be taken for long periods of time and still be affective?
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  9. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    There are truly very few real Scientists about currently. There are mostly toy Scientists pretending.

    No that doesnt work, no you must have been conned by the homeopathic placebo, no that cant work, no ...
    And what follows is similar to a robotic programme of concrete beliefs churned out.

    http://www.guardiansofthestatusquo.com/


    I have been blessed with engaging in conversation with a few Real Scientists and it is an honour and joy. Their openess and ability to hear a
  10. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    placebo pills?
  11. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    The placebo is widely understood to be of fleeting nature.

    When a Chronic condition has been cured from one or two treatments of Homeopathic remedies, and this cure holds long term - then I believe this is something completely different above and beyond a placebo effect.
  12. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    golden

    Homeopathy. Can I take them for months or a year to treat a bacterial infection and have the same type benefit that I had for a one week trial?

    What was interesting is that I just started taking the stuff with my handful of other things and didn't really expect it to do anything. I was kind of suprised it helped.

    Wow. Kind of strange stuff going on, never looked to see how it works.
  13. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    Just popped back to contradict myself!

    I can actually think of placebo stories which have cured Cancer!

    Jarod - I dont know about the year of homeopathic treatment as with my animals - even complex, 'no hope cases' have been resolved within a short course of treatment...

    :)
    Jarod likes this.
  14. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    What does it mean that there are 'truly very few real scientists about currently'. A scientist is an individual who uses the scientific method. What is a 'real' scientist? It surely doesn't come down to 'openess and ability to hear'. Most of the problems with research come down to study design. Sometimes scientists unconsciously design a study that will produce the answer they are looking for, it doesn't mean they aren't a 'real' scientist, it means they are human. When it comes to testing substances, randomized double-blind studies are the best. Presently, all scientists are taught the 'scientific' method, so what makes them not 'real'? And I am not talking about dishonest corrupt scientists who fudge results as a means to an end which is usually money because they are 'real' scientists too because they use the scientifc method for their dishonesty.

    Hahnemann came up with a hypothesis based on his own line of thinking back when little was understood about how the body works or how illness is caused. He was disillusioned with medical practices at the time as he well should of been because it was mostly killing patients or not doing anything. He was no scientist either, he was a medical doctor. If you read how medical doctors were trained back in the 1700's, you will see it was abysmal.

    He did not rigorously test his hypothesis regarding homeopathy using the scientific method. When the scientific method was developed and refined and as we learned more and more about the human body, his hypothesis failed miserably.

    The history of medicine is actually quite interesting as is the develop of the scientific method. There are some very good books on the subject.
    Hip and Valentijn like this.
  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    If an individual's own standards of evidence are low, and they will accept any old stuff as being true simply because it pleases them to do so, then that's a choice they make for themselves. There are many human beings like that, who believe something is true simply because they would like it to be true, simply because they fancy it to be true, rather than because of empirical evidence.

    If you are like that, refraining from scientific discussion would be the best choice, because truth in science is based on empirical evidence, not on fancy.

    There are time-honored methodologies and etiquettes in science, and if you don't understand and follow these, it becomes as annoying as someone talking loudly and brashly in a library, when the appropriate etiquette is to converse quietly. These time-honored methodologies are put in place to prevent nonsense being presented as truth.

    Just as in law, someone is not considered guilty until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt by the facts, in science, something is not considered true until proven true beyond reasonable doubt by the empirical evidence.
  16. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    It should be noted that the James Randi Foundation is offering the sum of $1 million for anyone who can provide proof that homeopathy works.

    Since that money has not yet been claimed, I think we can assume that nobody has been able to provide proof that homeopathy has an effect.
  17. golden

    golden Senior Member

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    Kina,

    Just been thinking about how to answer your post. I have serious technology disadvantage here and so I cant quote etc... in fact I cant remind myself of your post whilst answering here....

    I think the reason the analogy of the world is flat vs the world is round is used is to give an impression of the kind of shift in personal thinking is needed. That probably applies to all of us at any given time...

    Since I can only pick out one or two points at a time, I would focus on the belief of the 'Gold Standard' double blind placebo controlled trial ....

    This is a basic article about its flaws however the solutions are flawed too!
    Whilst it jokes they are Bronze Standard trials - I dont find they meet third place either...

    Hope you find something useful in it...

    http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/l...1011/the-trouble-double-blind-placebo-studies

    Now I am just going off to put another link in here (will edit) , but this will contain a more generalised view and does contain infoation on the fraud that is taking place...

    Bringing this link instead as it has a bit about Homeopathy in too... in keeping with the threads theme... I cant highlight the bits I find most useful and as with most articles, I rarely agree with them 100%... but its stuff to mull over... http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...5/22/lies-damn-lies-and-medical-research.aspx
  18. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    I didn't ask you about any of this, I asked what you thought a 'real scientist' is. A scientist is a person who uses the scientific method. The time I have to read articles right now is very little and I prefer to read actual science not fluff written in Psychology Today nor opinions pieces that rely heavily on confirmation bias. There will always be problems with scientific method but really it's all we have but I would prefer to spend what little time I have reading articles that are balanced and objective.

    Again, I simply want to know what you mean by 'real scientist'. If you are going to make a claim that there aren't many 'real' scientists around please back the statement with some sound reasoning. Or not.
    Valentijn likes this.
  19. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    I can't even type Ben Goldacre's name without having a reaction :)devil::mad:) and what he knows about placebos is as much as me............. I wouldn't give his opinion read time.
  20. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    I'm not sure why anyone would state with such certainty that herbs don't have a vibrational influence. When was this ascertained to be unassailable truth? What if the action of herbs has to do with chemical constituents AND vibratations? And who is to say with ABSOLUTE certainty that the same isn't true for modern conventional medicines? Has scientific research been done in this area?

    Perhaps you will say time-honored methodologies makes these postulates truth. I would be interested to know how long it takes to honor time? A hundred years? A thousand years? 5,000 years? History is replete with time-honored beliefs / traditions of all sorts (including scientific) giving way to paradigm shifts. Time-honored does not necessarily equate to accuracy or truth, and various financial and political forces saying that it does does not make it so.

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