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HIV patients have low glutathione too, is this a similar process to M.E patients?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by anniekim, Nov 18, 2011.

  1. anniekim

    anniekim Senior Member

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    I've seen papers mention that HIV patients have low glutathione due to an increase of oxidative stress from the virus. Is it possible that the reason people with m.e/CFS have low glutathione is because some unknown pathogen is increasing oxidative stress as in HIV?
  2. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    I'm not a scientist anniekim but this does look interesting - hopefully someone brighter will step in and be able to comment. on something we have in common.
  3. MDL

    MDL

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    Here's a link: Hydrogen sulfide

    When I wrote my original hypothesis years ago "Hypothesis: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Mitochondrial Hypo-function, and Hydrogen Sulfide", I was fascinated to find a bacterial link to both ME/CFS and HIV. Please see page 7 http://aboutmecfs.org.violet.arvixe.com/RsRch/H2S.pdf. In fact, I thought it was potentially so significant that I chose to make that my last observation. I think a close reading of the hypothesis will give much to think about, as it involves looking at the disease in a wholly new way.

    The relationship of hydrogen sulfide to bacteria, genes, diet, mitochondria and homeostasis in our bodies is highly significant. I think it may serve as the underlying mechanism, or what I like to think of, metaphorically, as the electricity in the house. It does not preclude a finding of a viral or bacterial cause, but rather helps to explain how illness can develop when there are problems with this essential ingredient in our bodies. My hypothesis may well provide the unifying theory for this disease, and may even provide some valuable insights into other diseases as well.
    Francelle likes this.
  4. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Thanks MDL for the very interesting and thought provoking paper- encephalitis part of ME at severity certainly "whapped" me early on.(And MRI showing "high spots" in the brain).
  5. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, anniekim.

    I think that is very possible. In fact, in the Glutathione Depletion--Methylation Cycle Block hypothesis that I have proposed for the pathogenesis and pathophysiology of ME/CFS, glutathione depletion occurs initially because of the action of stressors on the body. There are four categories of stressors that can contribute, the combination differing for different cases. The categories are physical, chemical, biological, and psychological/emotional. Among the biological stressors are infections with pathogens, and among the pathogens are the viruses. I think that the viral onset is particularly important for the epidemic or cluster cases of ME/CFS. Viral infections certainly do raise oxidative stress and place demands on glutathione.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  6. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Rich with the greatest respect - please may I ask why psychological/emotional stress (not for me at the time) is still considered to have a place in the possible origins. Are we not looking at viral/bacterial stressors here, genetic predispositons too. In your experience is there evidence for psychological/emotional distress causing the whole chain of pathologies or is it just speculative ?
  7. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Enid.

    I want to emphasize that I am not referring to anything psychiatric in this regard. What I am referring to is the variety of stressors to which the body's nonspecific stress response system responds. This system elevates the secretion of cortisol, epinephrine and norepinephrine, and these hormones produce biochemical and physiological effects. In ME/CFS onset, I have proposed that these stressors are responsible for the depletion of glutathione, which in turn leads to a functional B12 deficiency, which in turn causes a partial block in the methylation cycle and loss of folates from the cells.

    The point is that the body's nonspecific stress response system responds to the entire collection of stressors added together. It does not distinguish among physical, chemical, biological, and psychological/emotional stressors, and all of these can contribute to depletion of glutathione.

    Is there evidence for the involvement of psychological/emotional stressors in the onset of ME/CFS? Yes, there are several published studies that describe stressors that were present prior to onset in ME/CFS patients. I reviewed this literature in my AACFS poster paper on glutathione depletion in 2004, and it can be found in the General Wiki pages of this forum, or at http://aboutmecfs.org.violet.arvixe.com/Rsrch/GluAACFS04.aspx
    In my own interviews of many PWMEs/PWCs by questionnaire over the past 15 years I have also received a great deal of evidence of the importance of psychological/emotional stressors in many (but not all) cases. Often there is a "perfect storm" type of situation prior to onset, in which several of the various stressors are present simultaneously.

    Over the years, I have occasionally been "jumped on" in ME/CFS forums for proposing this as part of the GD-MCB hypothesis, because some people have interpreted what I have written to mean that I think people who develop ME/CFS have mental or psychiatric problems as the cause of their illness. I assure you that this is not the case. It is true that many people who have ME/CFS do become depressed, but this is a secondary effect, not at all surprising to me, given that so much has been taken away from them by this disorder, and it is not always easy to find a basis for hope. The treatment I have suggested is a biochemical treatment, not a psychiatric treatment. It is helping many people, and I believe it is cause for hope for many more.

    I would encourage you to view the video and/or PDF slides from the seminar I presented last month in Sweden if you want to get a more detailed understanding of my hypothesis. It can be found at

    http://iaomt.media.fnf.nu/2/skovde_2011_me_kroniskt_trotthetssyndrom/$%7Bweburl%7D

    Note that a genetic predisposition is also part of the model I have proposed, as are viral and bacterial pathogens.

    Best regards,

    Rich
    anne_likes_red likes this.
  8. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Thanks Rich, I'll certainly have a look - I just recall being happily involved in a job before a sore throat which wouldn't dsappear. (Fairly demanding work and lack of personal health warnings probably tipped the balance for me). I don't recall depression as usually used but something akin to the clinical - bodily functions/thinking capacities almost slowing to a standstill. When I had the energies I seemed to be jollier than those around. Of course one gets fed up from time to time but mostly with restrictions and lack of understanding from medics. But glutathione depletion/oxidative stress does look convincing all round. (And accepted now)

    Nice paper and understanding Rich - only just read.
  9. anniekim

    anniekim Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    Thanks for your reply. I believe you say that according to your glutathione depletion theory that for it it happen you need not only a stressor but also genetic variations. Is it not the case though that for HIV patients the low glutathione is soley due to the HIV virus? Could that not be the same for M.E?
  10. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    So, if methylation support and other antioxidants help, but don't "cure", one would assume the initial triggering "stressor" is still active? I guess that's obvious. The methylation support is helping me somewhat, but the only time I feel remotely normal is when I catch a common cold. I've addressed the others that you mention above. It all helps a bit, but clearly there's something else going on.

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