Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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Histamine: a sneaky cause?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by sillysocks84, Sep 23, 2015.

  1. sillysocks84

    sillysocks84 Senior Member

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    So as I have been developing allergic reactions I have seen how I am definitely not alone on our site for this phenomenon. I am thinking something that started our diseased state triggered histamine release. Perhaps a vaccine can. Maybe one vaccine does but you don't notice so then over time some susceptible groups get higher histamine release as the body tries a protective stance over foreign objects: vaccines. But those very vaccines or whatever caused low DAO. More and more this may slowly add up. Or other allergens besides vaccines may also have this effect of course.

    Perhaps the release of histamine from what our body thought was intruding effected our adrenergic receptors, possibly from the stress of breaking histamine down constantly over long periods of time. So the adrenal cortex keeps sending catecholamines: epinephrine and norepiniphrine to the adrenergic receptors. This may be why we get high heart rates, tired or painful muscles, fatigue among others. Our bodies may be in a constant loop!

    At first we probably don't realize this because we lack symptoms or are very mild and very sporadic symptoms as just being tired until it goes on over time, adds up and we have a diseased state.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
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  2. sillysocks84

    sillysocks84 Senior Member

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    DAO can get lowered many ways. It's what's responsible for breaking down histamine. Histamine can effect gut, brain, respiratory, and skin systems. Sound familiar?

    "Bacteria, such as Lactobacillus, Streptococcus, Aeromonas, E.Coli, Plesimonas Staphlococcus, are also histamine producing. Interestingly enough, vitamin B6 is an important co-enzyme to DAO, and is typically found low in individuals with histamine intolerance due to inadequate Amounts Of DAO."

    http://www.beyondthebite4life.com/2014/11/the-good-the-bad-the-ugly-histamine.html

    This suggests balancing our gut flora is a necessity to our healing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
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  3. sillysocks84

    sillysocks84 Senior Member

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    Definitely two recurring problems seen a lot: histamine intolerance probably due to initial invaders changing our gut makeup and adrenal problems going haywire from being in a constant loop of over releasing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
  4. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    I think in this disease the excess histamine is probably from IgE independent mast cell release. My guess is that it's less about poor breakdown by DAO and more about just constant release.
     
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  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    FMN form of B2 has essentially eliminated my histamine problems. I now eat a spoonful of yogurt, sauerkraut most days. I don't go looking for histaminic foods, but the FMN has stopped my reliance on antihistaminic supps. See my signature for blog I rote about my experience.
     
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  6. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Those are all good points, @sillysocks84 . The reason for histamine release can probably be varied. I started looking histamine with respect to oxidative stress, oxygen radicals, ROS, and NO, and got a lot of hits, and it does look like it has something to do with oxidative stress. Dealing with the oxidative stress through antioxidants (quercetin, luteolin, etc.) and promotion of some of the redox enzymes is a good way to get it under control, but then it's true that it would be good to figure out the root cause.

    For me I think it was a combination of probably genetics, mercury poisoning at a fairly young age, virus, non-alcoholic fatty liver, Lyme, stress, toxic diet for some years, fill in the blank of other possibilities.

    The effect that ahmo is having with the FMN form of B2 does back up the theory of oxidative stress being involved. @mariovitali and his friend pppodh brought up some very good points about how to deal with oxidative stress. And maybe there might be mentioned the value in finding out what's causing it and taking care of that, too.
     
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  7. sillysocks84

    sillysocks84 Senior Member

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    @halcyon that's interesting. Can you give me a little more insight in why it could be ige rather than DAO insufficiency? I'm trying to make connections.
     
  8. sillysocks84

    sillysocks84 Senior Member

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    @ahmo I will definitely be looking at your blog when I get more energy.

    @Violeta could oxidative stress be caused from adrenals working overtime? It does cause a higher heartrate and shortness of breath for many.
     
  9. sillysocks84

    sillysocks84 Senior Member

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    Researchers in Feb 2014 have been looking at Auto antibodies for adrenergic receptors. What is everyone's take on this? I had a post about it. I will copy paste the link below:
     
  10. sillysocks84

    sillysocks84 Senior Member

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  11. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    Because when people with ME/MCAS take mast cell stabilizers this seems to drop histamine levels.
     
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  12. sillysocks84

    sillysocks84 Senior Member

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    Dao controls histamine levels in blood fluids, not basophils and mast cells. Ok. So how well do mast stabilizers work? I feel I have a lot more research in how mast cells relate if all to the adrenals.
     
  13. sillysocks84

    sillysocks84 Senior Member

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    @halcyon
    "Reduced DAO activity in some people’s intestines can result in high histamine levels and a condition called Histamine Intolerance. These excess amounts of histamine can cause a wide variety of symptoms including low blood pressure, headache, sleep disturbances, diarrhea, heart rhythm problems, acid reflex, hypertension, vertigo, anxiety, flushing, runny nose, asthma, hives, flushing, itchy skin, painful or irregular periods and fatigue.

    DAO is produced in very high concentrations by the placenta during pregnancy, and as a result women with Histamine Intolerance often report a remission of symptoms when they are pregnant. That’s an intriguing finding, of course, given reports of similar symptom remissions in some women with ME/CFS.

    An assomciation between estrogen and DAO levels, resulting in a decline in DAO levels and a worsening of the symptoms of histamine intolerance in perimenopausal and menopausal women also exists."

    I realize you're not a female halycon. But it may apply in some situations. I know I felt 100% better when I was pregnant.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
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  14. sillysocks84

    sillysocks84 Senior Member

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  15. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Stress certainly does cause mast cell degranulation. There's a study out there about it, I'll see if I
    can find it.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK279017/


    There's a facebook page for Fans of dr. Theoharides, the person who designed NeuroProtek. He has a lot of published papers on mast cells.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
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  16. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Dr.Theoharides' mast cell stabilizer, NeuroProtek, is based on the antioxidant luteolin.
     
  17. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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  18. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I'm tired and I don't think well when I'm tired, but I'll just do the best I can with this.

    When I used to read at Fans of Dr. Theoharides, I realized that his formulas so something with copper. Copper is a necessary, important metal, but there's a lot of people these days who have biounavailable but toxic copper. The luteolin deals with/manages the copper so that it doesn't do it's part to cause mast cell degranulation. Carnosine (as in the paper above) manages copper, too.

    The way this might tie in with the adrenals is that when the adrenals are stressed they don't send the message to the liver to make ceruloplasmin, the copper carrying enzyme, and so you end up with free copper floating around. Not sure about the mode of zinc deficiency causing the same thing, but maybe because zinc can be the limiting factor in metallothionein production, and when you don't have adequate metallothionein, you end up with excess free floating copper.If you don't have adequate ceruloplasmin, iron becomes toxic and biounavailable, too.
     
  19. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Before FMN I'd been using royal jelly as MC stabilizer. Worked well for me. Definitely MC flared when adrenals were inflamed.
    Excellent MC article: https://mastcellblog.wordpress.com/2013/11/12/canary/
    Dr. Theoharides: “The mast cell is the Canary of the body”
     
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  20. sillysocks84

    sillysocks84 Senior Member

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    Thank you so much @ahmo . Your blog is a wonderful resource! I am so excited. I was wondering just tonight why when I take so much vitamin C, 8,000mg do I feel halfway better?

    Histamine is but one of 30 mediators, but is a doozy! Omg. Now how can we keep mast cells leaking out of control. That's the billion dollar question that would most likely be curative....

    I definitely think you should email Dr. Theoharides. I have emailed researchers and mds before. They sometimes do reply. I would ask him if there is any research being done on his findings to bring about a solution to these diseases. Also if he has heard about dysautonomia research involving an antibody to manipulate adrenergic receptors if mast cells play into that at all.

    I guess I wish beyond anything doctors and researchers would read these boards and if they beat their brains up as much as we do on this topic, this dilemma would be solved quick. I know they do care and work hard..but having this disease makes things different. We are all lucky we have the chance to collaborate on here.
     

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