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High Oxalates & B12 Deficiency

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Sherpa, Mar 12, 2015.

  1. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    I got my OAT (Organic Acids Test) results that showed extremely high oxalates. I found this article which quotes Dr. Amy Yasko on why high oxalates can have many causes and it doesn't necessarily mean you need to go on a low oxalate diet.

    "Low B12 is a common cause of high oxalate. Low B12 induces the Krebs cycle to run in a retrograde direction, which increases oxalate. Check your B12 levels on the appropriate tests. Among other functions, lithium transports B12 into your cells. High or very high serum B12 is an indicator for low serum lithium, which can easily be checked by blood test, or hair elements analysis and urine toxic metals and essential elements."

    The article has lots of great insights for anyone who is tests high in oxalic acid.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015
  2. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    Have you had a blood test done to check your b12 levels?

    When I checked mine it was above the reference range due to supplementation.

    However, you never know how much is actually being used at the cellular level, so maybe it's just high because it's not being synthesized, or lack of methylation.
     
  3. shannah

    shannah Senior Member

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    Having difficulty with the link. Don't know if it's just me but clicking on it leads nowhere.

    Would someone else try please and let me know if it's working for them?

    Thanks.
     
  4. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    Link is fixed!
     
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  5. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Sherpa,

    Thanks so much for this terrific look at oxalates by Dr. Yasko. This, as with so much relating to methylation, is never a one-size-fits-all sort of thing. So, here goes.

    A diet almost exclusively of Extrememly High oxalates--lots of nuts and Swiss Chard--for the last few years led to more pain issues and ultimately chronic diarrhea, or dumping (so far, about six weeks into a diet of lower oxalates).

    I have taken a multi B vitamin for years since long before beginning to tune into methylation issues a year ago, and lately I’ve fretted about what might or might not be working for me:

    Vitamin B-50 by Country Life – Coenzyme B-Complex – 2 tablets contain:

    Thiamine (B1 as from Thiamine Hydrochloride) (Thianine cocarboxylase chloride) 50 mg

    Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2) (as riboflavin, riboflavin 5’phosphate) 50 mg

    Niacin (as inositol hexaniacinate) 100mg

    Vitamin B-6 (Pyridoxine HCl, pyridoxal, 5’phosphate, pyridoxine alpha-ketoglutarate HCL) 800 mcg

    Folate (as Folic Acid,(6S)-5-Methyletrahydrofolate-glucosamine salt) 800 mcg

    Vitamin B-12 (as dibencozide, methycobalamin) 500 mcg

    Biotin (as d-Biotin) 200 mcg

    Pantothenic Acid (as pantethine, calcium d-pantothenate) 50 mg

    PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid) 50 mg

    Phosphatidylcholine (from soy lecithin) 40 mg

    Inositol (from Inositol Hexaniacinate) 26 mg

    Alpha-Lipoic Acid 100mcg


    My bloodwork via traditional pcp shows my B12 levels to be 1382 in a range of 211-911. And my only/recent NutrEval Test shows me to be Borderline B12-Cobalamin in Supplementation. So I suspect there’s a functional deficiency, right?


    Borderline : Thiamine - B1, Pyridoxine -B 6, Folic Acid - B9, Cobalamin -B 12, Zinc

    High Need: α- Lipoic Acid, Riboflavin - B2

    Suggested:
    Riboflavin - B 2 - Dose = 50 mg
    α-Lipoic Acid - 200 mg

    My alternative doc is recommending B6 to help with the oxalates.
    I have two CBS heterozygous genes rs2851391 and rs1801181, so, there’s undoubtedly some hobbling.

    So that’s the maze.

    For the moment I’m trying to discover which B6 is best for me and am thinking the Source Naturals sublingual which I can titrate.But as to that, it seems that if I take B6, I ought to also consider Rioboflavin, which I am very low in and seems to be some sort of co-factor for B6 absorbtion. Any suggestions as to this?

    Thank you for any thoughts on this complex jumble.

    Have a great day!

    K
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2015
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  6. Sherpa

    Sherpa Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie

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    In the article Yasko says: "High or very high serum B12 is an indicator for low serum lithium, which can easily be checked by blood test, or hair elements analysis and urine toxic metals and essential elements."

    As far as B6, I have used the Source Naturals sublingual B6 and it is a very potent and effective product. It gets absorbed fast and I can feel it working within minutes. After using it for a few weeks I feel like my blood levels of B6 are restored, and the sublingual takes on a more stimulating effect (rather than the sleepy serotonin rush I get when I'm B6 deficient.)

    From what I have heard, low B6 is often caused by low B2. FMN or FAD (B2 metabolite) is needed to convert B6 into active formats. Restoring B2 can "fix" B6 deficiency in many cases. I have been supplementing with plain old Riboflavin approx 12.5mg doses - 3 times per day and my extra-ordinariry need for B6 has gone down. Now I can recall my dreams with just a low-normal amount of B6 in a multivitamin.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2015
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  7. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Thank you for your input. Interestingly, I've noticed that many B6 supplements include some B2 as well, and I've read about the need for B2 to activate the B6. As to dreams, I had none for more than a decade, and recently they've returned sporadically, I think due to a slow titration of zinc that I've been working on. Needless to say, sleep has been one of my greatest challenges. Little by little....
     
  8. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    The independent researcher Susan Costen Owens has done an enormous amount of work on oxalates, particularly in autism. Some of this is summarised on her website www.lowoxalate.info and a lot more is scattered through files in the associated Yahoo group, Trying Low Oxalates. I made a summary of many of the pertinent points for another purpose, so I'll upload the document for you to look at.

    Many people have problems with the oxalates in food because antibiotics have wiped out the gut bacterium Oxalobacter formigenes which preferentially digests oxalate. Currently it is not available as a probiotic, though clinical trials are underway. Some strains of Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium can step into the breech, though it is not their preferred food. VSL 3 is one probiotic that has been shown to be able to digest oxalate. Undigested oxalate is taken up into the body further along the colon and it can accumulate throughout. It is a metabolic poison and the body tries to get rid of it by simply dumping it into the skin, bowel and urine, but it travels down a concentration gradient, so blood levels need to fall before this can happen. Interestingly there appears to be some sensing mechanism whereby cells will not dump their accumulated oxalate into the gut unless there are oxalate-digesting bacteria present. Thus a compounding problem can arise as the body accumulates this metabolic poison for want of appropriate dispersing mechanisms in the gut.

    There are a couple of rare genetic conditions where oxalate is manufactured endogenously because of defects in a couple of enzymes. However what Susan Owens and others have discovered is the much more common situation where people become endogenous producers despite having normal enzymes. The predisposing condition appears to be prolonged oxidative stress which damages the B6 dependant enzymes involved and sets up a self-perpetuating process of oxalate accumulation. Everyone on this board should be very thoughtful about this possible consequence of prolonged oxidative stress.

    Once oxalate starts accumulating, then many B6, B1 and biotin dependant enzyme systems become compromised and a cascading array of other metabolic pathways get deranged, most notably energy pathways, methylation, trans-sulfuration, glutathione recycling, to name just a few. The article you cited I think often has things the wrong way around - it is oxalates causing many of the problems she refers to.

    Oxalates on an OAT test often reflect the body's handling of dietary oxalate and the normal process of dumping of accumulated material. Only the OAT test done by Great Plains Laboratory looks at three oxalate markers (glyceric and glycolic acids, as well as oxalate) and is capable of giving insight into whether endogenous oxalate production has become an issue (though Susan doesn't necessarily think that they interpret it properly).

    Food for thought for you all.

    With best wishes
    Alice
     

    Attached Files:

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  9. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Terrific, Alice! I'm adding this to my compendium of oxalate info. I've wandered the Yahoo group, but have often been frustrated. At least on my iPad, it is nowhere near as well organized as PR, so beyond running out the very long updated list of foods and their oxalate content, I tend not to stick around.

    I'll be having the OAT test within the month, I think, so that may yield more specifics.

    Once I got into this issue, I began to recall my mother, who as she died too young of breast cancer, was devoted to the Gerson diet, which included lots of carrot and celery and green drinks (not to mention raw liver, ugh!). She complained her feet hurt, with what she self-diagnosed as gout, but now I'm thinking she was shooting herself in the foot much as I've been. Oh, Mum...
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2015
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  10. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    So, here’s a wrinkle. I was doing some research with regard to the OAT test run @ Great Plains Lab. The financial issues are covered for me, but when I asked about the first morning urine caveat, they said I had to have been asleep for 4-6 hours for adequate concentration of the urine in order for the test to mean anything.

    Well, I wonder when that will happen. I try not to take sleep meds and even a valium to help with muscle spasms and wired mind, though it will give me more sleep than normal, won’t keep me asleep for longer than 3 hours at a stretch. And if I’m lucky, that happens once during the night.

    So I guess I just wait and see how my sleep goes. Admittedly, my complex sleep issues and urinary frequency may relate to the oxalates I’ve been dumping for the past two months. I suppose it’s possible my sleep may improve over the next few months.

    Wouldn’t that be nice?!
     
  11. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    I'd be inclined to judge by the urine colour, as described in the test kit instructions. As long as there is some yellow then it should be ok.

    I have polyuria, so even though I sleep reasonably well, my first morning urine is always dilute. I have done several of these tests and have never had a rejected specimen. I did follow the instructions to restrict fluid from 6 pm the evening before and managed a pale yellow sample, which was ok.

    They will send you a test collection kit free since you live in USA, so you have nothing to lose. Just restrict fluid, collect a morning urine and if it has some yellow, then go ahead. If not, try again later (they say just rinse the container with hot water and air dry).

    With best wishes
    Alice
     
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  12. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Alice,

    Thank you for sharing these details. They give me more courage, not to mention hope, with regard to the OAT test. I will try to move forward with it.
     
  13. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Sorry for oversimplifying it, but doesn't magnesium reverse (melts?) both oxalate and urate crystals?
     
  14. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    My understanding is still fairly new/rudimentary, but I think both calcium and magnesium 'bind' with oxalates, and therefore enable your body to excrete them more easily. Suggestions as to taking calcium have you taking it 15 minutes prior to eating so it can be in your digestive tract when the food arrives--I think to absorb it from the food.
     
  15. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Personally I avoid calcium supplementation and am eating a high calcium diet. When I needed more calcium due to magnesium supplementation I took vitamin A instead.
     
  16. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    I'm sure getting nutrients through the food you eat is a better approach. But I don't understand how/if vitamin A substitutes for magnesium...
     
  17. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    It "substituted" for calcium. Vit A is vit D antagonist and keeps calcium in circulation.
     
  18. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Calcium and magnesium don't melt oxalates, they form insoluble salts. Too much of these can cause serious problems as anyone with kidney stones will attest. Very fine crystals can be deposited in various tissues and are thought to be important contributors to many pain syndromes such as fibromyalgia and interstitial cystitis.

    Taking calcium or magnesium a little before meals is recommended for people who have trouble dealing with dietary oxalate, the idea being that the oxalate will be removed as an insoluble salt before it can be absorbed in the colon.

    I do have problems with oxalates and restrict dietary sources, but don't take calcium or magnesium before meals. I have low levels of O. formigenes in the gut and want it to have oxalate available to stimulate its growth.

    If you have the misfortune of being an endogenous producer (which I am) then you will need to stimulate blocked metabolic pathways with high doses of select B vitamins to try to reverse the accumulation of this metabolic poison.

    With best wishes
    Alice
     
  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @alicec I have urate problems and taking magnesium away from meals helped me with that. I have read that magnesium helps with both urate and oxalate kidney stones.

    From your post above I understand some oxalate is desirable. After intense supplementation with magnesium last year my oxalate tested very low below range and uric acid was low but closer to normal range. I have eaten a lot of spinach after that though, which is high in both oxalate and salicylate (which I believe interacts with urate making it to increase).

    Please forgive my poor biochemistry knowledge.
     
  20. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Your biochemical knowledge sounds ok to me, and I agree magnesium is wonderful for many things. As well as its use in precipitating out oxalate in the gut so it can't be absorbed, it also acts as a cofactor for several enzymes which help to deal with the oxalate that does get taken up, it is helpful for relieving the pain associated with oxalate deposition and dumping etc, plus of course it is essential for many metabolic pathways - so lots of magnesium is recommended.

    Actually I don't know a lot about uric acid but am fairly sure I am developing mild gout-like symptoms as a result of gut changes, as detailed in the resistant starch thread, so it is time I found out more.

    Although gout and calcium oxalate kidney stones do seem to go together sometimes, the chemistry of oxalates and urates is very different as is the way they cause problems in the body if present in excess. Magnesium does seem to help the body deal with both, but in different ways.

    And unlike uric acid, which is an important anti-oxidant, oxalate serves no useful purpose at all. It is a plant poison which we have varying ability to deal with, depending on many other circumstances. The only reason that I don't use the magnesium before food approach to remove the small amount of oxalate that I eat from the gut, is that a recent gut test has shown that I do have at least some O. formigenes (I thought it had all been killed by antibiotics). Its preferred food is oxalate so I want to nurture it and help it to grow. In the future, an abundance of this organism should mean that I can better deal with dietary oxalates. I continue to take large amounts of magnesium after meals.

    With best wishes
    Alice
     
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