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high MCV and MCH

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by lizw118, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    I am very frustrated! Not only did I test positive for lyme, but I also came back with elevated MCV and MCH numbers. Doesn't this indicate pernicious anemia or at least a deficiency in B12 or folate?
    I have been taking so much B12 and folate--15 grams of B12 and 10 grams of folate and tons of cofactors and minerals for methylation. Could these be elevated because I tried glutathione a month or so ago and it threw me off?
    What is going on????
    Liz
     
  2. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Liz;
    This is a difficult question. It's possible that pathogens could be competing with the body for nutrients, and that you could still be deficient. Some other reasons that are usually brought up concerning high MCV besides B12/Folate deficiency are : hypothyroid, dehydration,reticulocytosis, and myelofibrosis.

    I understand that you are taking thyroid meds. After looking briefly over some of your posts, I see that you are also taking some minerals, including zinc. I've read of some few cases of copper deficiency and elevated MCV. Is there copper in your supplements? Even though the chance of this happening is remote, it's another possibility.
     
  3. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    I'm not sure what the answer is, but for what it's worth I have this too. I would suspect it's not from trying the glutathione, since that wouldn't line up with my experiences (mine was like this before I knew what glutathione was ;)). The levels weren't elevated before crashing out badly, so there must be something going on.

    My B12 and folate test very high (like you, I supplement these), but there are also indications that my body is maybe not actually able to USE what's there, so that could be it. Or maybe that the genetic issues in my body mean I need even more than the crazy levels of B12 I take daily.

    There is also some possibility of hypothyroid issues because of my free T3 level being a bit on the lower side, but the standard thyroid tests don't turn up anything, and my heart rate is certainly not slow. :rolleyes:

    I'm pretty sure I have a low blood volume issue, and am pretty chronically thirsty. So dehydration could be a factor.

    I haven't looked into copper deficiency (though I actually just had that level tested, so now I'm interested to see what comes back), but I eat a ton of cashews and some other copper-rich foods. I do get VERY dizzy with much lower levels of zinc than I'm supposed to, though, so I have wondered if there was something up there. I hadn't heard the copper and MCV/MCH connection before. Thanks for mentioning it, Crux.

    Sorry I'm not more help, but I'm glad you asked the question, and am interested in what other people have to say. I would like to get to the bottom of this abnormality too!
     
  4. Crux

    Crux Senior Member

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    Hi Y'all;

    Basic blood tests are probably the most vague of all tests, as so many of us have found. But until I eventually try other tests discussed here, they're all I have. My MCV and MCH did come down into the normal range with B12 and Folate, but they're not optimal. Although I'm not sure what optimal is, I've read that 90 is it. (for MCV)

    Another potential cause that I forgot to bring up is liver trouble. In some people, it is revealed with elevated liver enzymes, but with many, it doesn't. I've read that by the time liver enzymes increase, alot of damage has occurred.
    I've certainly had alot of pain in the liver area. Since I began the B12, though, the pains and vibrations have been minimized.

    With the zinc/copper issue, I've also read that in animal studies, when they became zinc toxic, their MCV's became subnormal. ( I know this is a strange example to use.) So I wonder if balancing my own zinc/copper may in turn further reduce my MCV/MCH to a more optimal level. I'll go to the doc in a few more months to see if the zinc/copper supps. I'm taking will have made a difference. I'm certainly feeling better, so I'm going with that for now.
     
  5. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Liz.

    I think you must mean milligrams, rather than grams, right?

    You didn't mention how long you had been supplementing the folate and B12 (and what form of folate was it?).
    If you haven't been taking folinic acid, that might help, because it is more readily converted to methylene tetrahydrofolate, which is the form needed to make thymidine, necessary for DNA for making new cells.

    Red blood cells normally have a lifetime of four months, so it can take some months to see a change in the average MCV and MCH, as the old cells have to die off and be replaced by new ones.

    Since you mentioned that you tested positive for Lyme disease, I'm wondering if you were also tested for Babesia. As you probably know, Babesiosis is one of the coinfections often associated with Lyme disease. Babesia is a protozoal parasite somewhat similar to the one that causes malaria, in that they both can live inside red blood cells. I don't think that elevated MCV and MCH are usually found in Babesiosis, but it might be a possibility.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Liz,

    What kind and brands of b12 and folate are you taking? Also, what other basics and critical cofactors? What about p5p? How long have you been at this?
     
  7. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd
    I'm taking your recommended brands (always forget if it's yarrow or now foods), the 5 mg one. I take that three times per day give or take, and the thorne methylfolate 5 mg as well. Also B-Right (which now has methylfolate) and tons of minerals and co-factors. I have been doing the methylation supps for over a year now. They helped for a long time but I recently started trying to detox using R Lipoic Acid and I also received a lyme positive test (I believe the lyme was reactivated by the metal chelation). I don't know if that could be impacting the MCH and MCV numbers. What do you think?
    Liz
     
  8. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Thanks Rich
    Yes I meant milligrams. Apologies. I have been doing the methylation protocol for over a year now. I noticed a big difference in strength during the initial few months of taking the high dose methylfolate (thorne brand 5 mg is what I take now) and B12. I'm not feeling the benefits as much now. I think the detoxing might be taking it's toll now? The folinic acid is an interesting suggestion. I will search for that and try it.
    I wasn't tested for Babesiosis. Are antibiotics used as a treatment for it?
    Thanks for all of your help!
    Liz
     
  9. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Thanks for the reply!
    Interesting. My tests did show a slightly low T3 level and I have been shown to have low copper in previous tests. I take copper about three times per week. I am trying to raise my thyroid dose a bit now. It would be nice if that was the reason.
    Liz
     

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