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High MCV and MCH

Discussion in 'Diagnostic Guidelines and Laboratory Testing' started by SOC, Feb 18, 2012.

  1. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    I've had persistently high MCV and high MCH for as long as I've been tested. Not super high, I think, but high. No doctor seems to be concerned about this, but I wonder -- why? What does it mean? Taking massive doses (or medium doses, or low doses) of B-12 doesn't fix it

    MCV: between 100 and 110 in the past year and increasing
    MCH: not very high -- between 33 (high end of normal) and 35.6

    Can anybody explain what these test results mean? Is this normal for ME, or is it my own little weirdness?
  2. Timaca

    Timaca Senior Member

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  3. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    Thanks, Timaca! Those sites are much more understandable to my cognitively-impaired mind than the ones I found.

    I do have hypothyroidism, so that's probably a major factor. Valcyte can also contribute, so that may be why MCV is slowly increasing over time. I guess that explains why nobody is concerned.
  4. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi SOC, if the high MCH and MCV are caused by the same illness this site lists these six conditions as the cause of these test results and they should be ruled out if they havent been http://en.diagnosispro.com/differen...me-lab-increased-mch/10439_10421-154_154.html

    If the results are caused by two separate conditions then Im sorry it gets a bit more complicated high MCV is caused by 100 different conditions see http://en.diagnosispro.com/differen...cular-volume-lab-increased/10439-154-240.html

    However high MCH is only caused by 10 different conditions see http://en.diagnosispro.com/differential_diagnosis-for/mch-lab-increased/10421-154.html

    If chronic fatigue is added to high MCH then these five conditions are possibly the cause and should be ruled out see http://en.diagnosispro.com/differen...ased-chronic-fatigue/10421_25271-154_154.html

    Hope this helps

    All the best
  5. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    Wow, neat site, rlc! Thanks!

    So far nothing looks likely other than the hypothyroidism. Still, I'm glad I'm getting some immune tests in a couple of weeks.
  6. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    SOC : does Lerner put his patients who are on valcyte on b12 & folate too? Does he monitor b12 & folate levels.. like with the proper tests ...not standard blood tests?
  7. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    Not as far as I'm aware.
  8. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    I've had both high as well, similar to yours, since getting really sick. Like you, no doctors have really paid attention to it because my B12 and folate levels checked out okay. I have no "obvious" hypothyroidism (i.e. T3, T4, TSH are in the normal range somewhere), and haven't taken any Valcyte.

    I've always been interested by the abnormality, though. Seems like a clue that's being overlooked. They were always normal before...
  9. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    Me, too. My daughter has similar lab results and also has ME, currently in remission. It is curious that they were normal before and now are high for both of us....
  10. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, SOC.

    Here's my opinion about what causes high MCV and MCH in ME/CFS:

    The bottom line is that it is caused by the partial block in the methylation cycle, and treating to lift this block should restore these parameters to normal values.

    Here are the details of the mechanism:

    The reason why red blood cells are larger and contain more hemoglobin than normal in ME/CFS is that the cells in the bone marrow that produce new blood cells do not have enough folate. Certain forms of folate are needed to make DNA and RNA, which are needed to make new cells. Since the bone marrow is not able to make red cells in normal numbers, it stuffs more hemoglobin into each one it does make, and that raises both MCV (their size) and MCH (their hemoglobin content).

    The reason why these cells do not have enough folates is that there is a partial block in methionine synthase, which links the methylation cycle to the folate metabolism. Because of this block, folates continue to be converted to methylfolate (this is called the "methyl trap" mechanism), but it cannot be used by the methionine synthase reaction. Instead, peroxynitrite, which rises because of the depletion of glutathione, breaks down the methylfolate, and that depletes the folates in general.

    A vicious circle forms between the depletion of glutathione and the partial block in methionine synthase. This vicious circle is what makes ME/CFS a chronic disorder.

    The good news is that this vicious circle can be broken by a methylation protocol. If you want to know more about it, check the video or slides at this url:

    http://iaomt.media.fnf.nu/2/skovde_2011_me_kroniskt_trotthetssyndrom/$%7Bweburl%7D

    You can also read my documents in the General Wiki pages of this forum, by going to the "Forum" page and clicking on General Wiki Pages. Part 7 of my documents includes the testing and treatment of this vicious circle mechanism.

    Best regards,

    Rich
    Lotus97 likes this.
  11. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    Thanks, rich! I'll check out the information you pointed me to and try to re-educate myself on the methylation protocol. It looks like I may have missed something the first time around.

    Daughter and I both used the Pall protocol and got a substantial improvement in symptoms at first, especially in chemical sensitivities. Eventually I plateaued and finally decided that I'd gotten all I was going to get from it, although I continued with it for many more months because it contained most of the supplements recommended for ME/CFS.

    When I first encountered the methylation protocol, my reading lead me to believe that Marty's protocol should work as a methylation protocol and I concluded that I had addressed that issue. I guess I should have done the testing, but by that time Daughter and I were both on Valcyte so money was extremely tight.

    I did adjust my supplement regime when you described the Simplified Protocol here, to include the Hydroxy B12 Mega Drops, 5-MTHF, and lecithin. I was already taking Marty's MMV-A which seemed like a reasonable equivalent to the General Vitamin Neurological Health Formula. I didn't see any changes and again concluded (without good testing :D) that I'd probably dealt with the methylation issue already.

    Now I have to wonder if I haven't yet cleared the methylation block. Might it be that I'm one of those for whom the Simplified Methylation Protocol isn't sufficient?
  12. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    I wonder if there is a connection with Valcyte. The risk profile includes anemia & thrombocytopenia (decreased platelet count.).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrombocytopenia
    Decreased platelet count can be caused by B12 & folate deficiency.
    Ditto anemia.
    I know another poster said something to the effect that he was going to supplement B12 & folate while on Valcyte...something about "salvaging the DNA pathway," if I recall correctly. Not sure I understand that.. but just throwing it out..
  13. SOC

    SOC Moderator and Senior Member

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    Yes, I suspect Valcyte plays a part, although they were slightly high even before Vacyte treatment. Valcyte may be driving the slow, steady increase.

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