The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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High dose vitamin B1 (thiamine)

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by manoka, Dec 15, 2014.

  1. Ravn

    Ravn Senior Member

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    Thanks @JasonUT. Did you get any benefit? How long did it take you to get normal test results?

    My doctor tried to order a thiamine test for me before I embarked on my experiment but this was refused so I'm flying blind and have only my symptoms to go by. Maybe I should try telling them I've been overdosing and therefore urgently need a test now;) This strategy did work for a magnesium test once:rolleyes:

    Has anybody here been able to judge just from symptoms when/if they can reduce their dose? How?
     
  2. JasonUT

    JasonUT Senior Member

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    Yes, improved energy and cognition. Improvements seems to be continuing, but at a much much slower pace. I complete a SpectraCell Micronutrient panel every 3 months. With that said, it took one 3 month test cycle to show improved B1 levels with Lipothiamine 400 mg. Additionally, I had several deficiencies which needed to be worked concurrently. There is still work to be done based on my latest results highlighted in post #89.

    I wish I new an answer to this. I struggle with this everyday.
     
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  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Did you find out something about it? Have you improved from anemia?
     
  4. sb4

    sb4 Senior Member

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    Any updates from people posting in this thread? Are you still taking thiamine?

    I stopped taking it for about a month to get the transketolase testing. I also went sort of ketosis around this time. When the test came back it should normal levels of thiamine but deficiency of riboflavin. So I decided to stop taking thiamine and instead do nutritional yeast.

    Anyway fast forward to now and I have gone higher carb again but noticed it was accompanied by very hard heart pounding that (sort of) ketosis had mostly resolved. I took some allithiamine and the hard heart pounding went away again, indicating that my body wasn't using glucose well due to POTS and thiamine at least somewhat resolves this. Using allithiamine however has made my sleep significantly worse.

    This got me thinking about the transketolase b1 and equivalent b2 test I took. Perhaps transketolase was only taking up "normal" amounts of thiamine because I was on a ketosis diet at the time, reducing the need for thiamine. Perhaps I came up as deficient in riboflavin for the same reason, ribovflavin enzyme needed more riboflaving to deal with higher fat load, making it appear to be deficient. IDK. Depends on how the test works I might email them.

    Either way I'm reasonably sure allithiamine helps with the hard heart pounding induced by sugar. Now I'm going to try reducing the negative sleep effects by supplementing B2 + B3 again and going down that rabbit hole.
     
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  5. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Still on high thiamine and very happy with it.
     
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  6. JasonUT

    JasonUT Senior Member

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    Yes, still taking. Definite improvement, but continuous improvement is increasingly slow with time. I probably wouldn't notice if it wasn't for others around me noticing.
    150 mg Lipothiamine
    Experimenting with an additional 150 mg Allithiamine or 300 mg Benfotiamine

    Where did you get the testing done?
     
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  7. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    Do you mind sharing where you got the fursultiamine (aka, thiamine tetrahydrofurfuryl disulfide)? It gives all the benefits of allithiamine but without the smell.
     
  8. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Allithiamine is a brand name. Allithiamine is fursultiamine, TTFD.
    allithiamine (no capital A) is a natural product that is not for sale, found in garlic.
    You can get fursultiamine without the smell when it is locked into a sugar pill, like Lipothiamine (TTFD with coating + ALA) or Alinamin Ex Plus (same TTFD + different vitamins added but no ALA, this is the 33 mg I was talking about).
    Alinamin Ex Plus, on amazon.com or ebay, much cheaper on ebay and they have bigger bottles too. Sent from Japan in all cases.
     
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  9. sb4

    sb4 Senior Member

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  10. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    Thank you, @Asklipia. That's what I found out, that Ecological Formulas Allithiamine is indeed fursultiamine/TTFD which is really what I wanted.
     
  11. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    I took 2 g thiamin hcl, because of reading this:
    http://www.resonantfm.com/thiamine-b1-and-chronic-fatigue/

    apparently the people in the study needed to take between 1500-1800 before fibromyalgia was totally eliminated, but the results were dramatic.

    anyway i felt warmth, tingling, etc.., lots of energy and tension but more a 'wired' feeling than a real cure

    and then some muscle pains in various parts of body, finally a sort of crash and more brain fog.

    Is there any solid resource for knowing what vitamins thiamin supplementation could deplete?

    The sources I have looked at said it's pretty safe, but I just want to be sure. I might wait to really try this until I have doctor's supervision, maybe we can even do IV thiamin
     
  12. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    @debored13 Interesting article. You might begin by having a NutrEval Test to check your metabolites. It tells you, for instance, your level of Pyruvic Acid, as well as your Lactic Acid. A recent test showed mine to be low/normal, lactic acid is 3.8 in a range of 1.9-19.8; and pyruvic 12 in a range of 7-32. I know I have had issues with low thiamin and have benefited from supplementation. But I never felt comfortable in my body (whatever that means!) with very high levels over 200mg of so. I did find that both Allithiamine and Benfotiamin are more effective than regular Thiamine HCL. I take 1 Benfotiamin 150mg/day in 4 divided doses.

    There are other things that can cause acidosis: high Glutaric Acid, for example, which I do have - .93 when it ought to be <=.51. Of benefit in this situation is Riboflavin, or B2.

    So! These tests do help in figuring out the direction that might assist your body.

    @Athene*
     
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  13. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    Unless covered by insurance, i probably can't afford a test like that. But i'll talk to my doctor
     
  14. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    From Charles Weber:
    Another resource:
    Immediately after the above, he quotes Charles Weber.
    This potassium/thiamine balance has been vital for me, so I've read up pretty thoroughly on it. I need potassium, but have to be careful, since it lowers my blood pressure. Thiamine helps raise it.
     
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  15. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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  16. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    with the first link I had trouble finding the specific primary source that states that thiamine depletes potassium. There are a lot of articles cited that are about the effects of thiamine or potassium, or the effect of potassium or magnesium deficiency on thiamine absorption, but I can't find one that suggests that thiamine depletes potassium.


    The closest thing I can find is this, but when I put this in google or pubmed I find this
    4. Mineno T. Effect of some vitamins and other substances on K metabolism in the myocardia of vitamin deficient rats - Experiemtal investigation. J. Nagoya Med. Assoc. 92: 80-95, 1969. "
     
  17. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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    I think the concern is that thiamine supplementation induces refeeding syndrome, in which potassium and electrolyte depletion is a possibility. On the other hand, correcting a thiamine deficiency may also normalise electrolyte imbalances. I reported the following earlier in another thread.

    Acute thiamine deficiency and refeeding syndrome: Similar findings but different pathogenesis
    A similar finding from this case report:

    Thiamin and folic acid deficiency accompanied by resistant electrolyte imbalance in the re-feeding syndrome in an elderly patient
     
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  18. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Would it perhaps be more direct to determine whether you have symptoms of potassium deficiency? And if you do, take/eat potassium to see if you've correctly identified the symptoms? And see whether they occur after taking thiamine, or does something else play in? And does lowering your thiamine dose help?

    The refeeding phenomenon @Eastman is talking about necessitates a new balancing act whenever it happens. Perhaps it's some other nutrient getting depleted, so in my approach, I wind up going on a symptom search first. I've got a supplement log 4 years long.

    Personally, I love finding the scientific evidence to back up the hypothesis I've made, but unfortunately we can't always rely on science to ask the questions we want answered, or to do studies that actually apply to the human body, or to tell us what happens in our own body. Am I part of the 70% who respond to a substance, or part of the 30% who do not? There's one way to find out quickly.
     
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  19. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    I consume more than the RDA for potassium. My concern is that the symptoms I'm having from thiamine could be induced by almost anything. This is why I'm interested in the scientific approach and knowing what deficiences thiamine is actually knonw to cause.
     
  20. debored13

    debored13 Senior Member

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    I consume more than the RDA for potassium. My concern is that the symptoms I'm having from thiamine could be induced by almost anything. This is why I'm interested in the scientific approach and knowing what deficiences thiamine is actually knonw to cause.
     

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