High-dose intravenous Vitamin C effective against Epstein-Barr-Virus?

[Wonkmonk]

There are quite a big list of natural products with antiviral properties.

Thanks for the great list. This is very interesting.

 

[pattismith]

Thank you @Carl for the informations.

From my own experience, some supplements must be taken with caution:

-Licorice is a bad idea if your potassium is not high, be careful to monitor it.

-Green tea will lower your iron absorption, so you have to monitor it too.

 

[pattismith]

Doesn't feel like it. Feels more like a very limited, transient symptom relief.

Well if your goal is to kill latent EBV, I don't think you have to expect a quick improvement.

People that take antiviral meds are not better before months or years!

The quick improvement you may feel is from the anti-oxydant action, and maybe antiviral if you have some ongoing active virus.

 

[JES]

Carl's list is a good starting point, but keep in mind that most of those supplements only have some evidence for being antiviral in vitro. Supplements that act as direct antivirals in vivo seem hard to come by. Even if supplement X works as antiviral in vivo, reaching meaningful concentrations in the body without getting to toxic dosages is often difficult. The same reason as why you need to take Vitamin C as IV instead of orally to gain any significant antiviral activity.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I agree, none of this is probably a substitute for antiviral medication.

 

[pamojja]

Well if your goal is to kill latent EBV, I don't think you have to expect a quick improvement.

Well, if one reads about Robert F. Cathcart, clinical experience it seems obvious that he had so much success because he always immediately started with treatment. Which is very different from latent infections.

https://vitamincfoundation.org/www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm

..Symptoms from acute viral diseases can most frequently be more permanently eliminated with intravenous sodium ascorbate. ..

Bolding added by me. Also heard from an other online doc about his frustration with vitamin C IVs not working against longstanding viral infections, because usually patients only come once it's no more acute as a last resort.

 

[pattismith]

Well, if one reads about Robert F. Cathcart, clinical experience it seems obvious that he had so much success because he always immediately started with treatment. Which is very different from latent infections.

Bolding added by me. Also heard from an other online doc about his frustration with vitamin C IVs not working against longstanding viral infections, because usually patients only come once it's no more acute as a last resort.

I think it may work as well on the long run, but it needs more tenacity to keep the treatment for months or years!

Monitoring the IgG levels could give some indications on the efficacity I guess

 

[JES]

Well, if one reads about Robert F. Cathcart, clinical experience it seems obvious that he had so much success because he always immediately started with treatment. Which is very different from latent infections.



Bolding added by me. Also heard from an other online doc about his frustration with vitamin C IVs not working against longstanding viral infections, because usually patients only come once it's no more acute as a last resort.

If you check this paper that is the most recent Vitamin C IV antiviral study that I'm aware of, it shows Vitamin C levels in blood inversely correlate with EBV antibody level. The study included patients with CFS, so one could assume that most had been sick for a longer period of time.

 

[pamojja]

If you check this paper that is the most recent Vitamin C IV antiviral study that I'm aware of, it shows Vitamin C levels in blood inversely correlate with EBV antibody level. The study included patients with CFS, so one could assume that most had been sick for a longer period of time.

Interesting. But also shows that continuous or at least repeat at 2 years of vitamin C IVs are needed to make a difference.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Not necessarily, as I understand it they did IVC for about 180 days and then stopped. The EBV went down during the 100 days, but went up again when they stopped, so it's maybe 3-6 months until there are results in lowering EBV, but you have to keep it up, otherwise they rise again.

 

[Hip]

There are quite a big list of natural products with antiviral properties.

Most of those herbal antivirals unfortunately will be poor antivirals in vivo, when you take them orally.

This is because most studies that test herbs, supplement and other compounds for antiviral effects are in vitro studies: they use a cell line infected with a virus to test antiviral potency. A lot of herbs and compounds will have good antiviral effects in vitro at certain concentrations.

However, the concentrations used in vitro are often not obtainable in vivo, when you take the drug orally. This is because even for herbs and supplements, there is a maximum safe oral dose, and if at the maximum dose you cannot achieve the concentrations in the bloodstream that were used in the cell line in vitro, then the herb or supplement is not going to have a good antiviral effect in the body.

Like you, I collected studies on lots of supplements, off-label drugs and compounds that have antiviral effects on viruses, but from some calculations I was doing recently, most unfortunately do not seem to work in vivo.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I think herbs, mushrooms etc. can only be an add-on, supportive therapy. The main therapy has to be real medication, or the "chemical mace" as we say in Germany.

 

[pattismith]

Most of those herbal antivirals unfortunately will be poor antivirals in vivo, when you take them orally.

.

I had one testimony from a people who stopped catching flu/colds when he started drinking daily fresh ginger infusions, so I started to do so a month ago. I hope I won't develop any toxicity from this regular intake!

 

[Hip]

I had one testimony from a people who stopped catching flu/colds when he started drinking daily fresh ginger infusions, so I started to do so a month ago. I hope I won't develop any toxicity from this regular intake!

In my pharmacokinetic calculations, I found a few herbs which do appear to have potent antiviral effects against the viruses linked to ME/CFS, such as very high dose genistein for cytomegalovirus, and Andrographis paniculata for EBV.

 

[pattismith]

In my pharmacokinetic calculations, I found a few herbs which do appear to have potent antiviral effects against the viruses linked to ME/CFS, such as very high dose genistein for cytomegalovirus, and Andrographis paniculata for EBV.

Thank you @Hip , I won't try genistein, as it is a flavonoid and a phytooestrogen, and it has shown some ability to lower fT3 in human in some studies.
In fact flavonoids have shown in vitro ability to disrupt type 1 deiodinase , and mine is bad, so my goal is to stop any of them.
I have to figure out if Androgaphis Paniculata could fit with my Low T3 (I have to check that for Ginger as well).

 

[pattismith]

Morning after 37.5g. Feeling a bit worse again. It's very much like with the first 30g infusion, but not as strong. Feels like the beginning of a sore throat, slight discomfort in the kidney area, overall feeling a bit worse than "normal".
.

I did a 15 mg infusion yesterday and felt the inflamed throat and the kidney disconmfort this morning.

I think I will lower the next dose.

However, each infusion gives me a hugh relief from my severe bronchitis and I can notice I am coughing less after each one. It may be the anti-oxydant effect, but I think I will keep doing it just for that, it's already a great result for me.
My lungs have been damaged by several years of formaldehyde exposure + organophosphates (cancerogen toxics), so they are easily inflamed and infected. This treatment may help them and protect them.

I thank you fo sharing your experiment, it happily inspired my trial.

I will monitor my Herpesvirus IgG to see on the long run if it gives some result

 

[Wonkmonk]

I thank you fo sharing your experiment, it happily inspired my trial.

You're welcome. I'm in such a lucky position of having access to all these treatments, so the least I can do is report on my experiences, so maybe the community can also benefit.

 

[JES]

In my pharmacokinetic calculations, I found a few herbs which do appear to have potent antiviral effects against the viruses linked to ME/CFS, such as very high dose genistein for cytomegalovirus, and Andrographis paniculata for EBV.

Sorry for OT, but did you post those calculations regarding Andrographis paniculata anywhere or do you know what the approximate needed dosage would be? I happen to have some andrographis on my shelf, so might as well test it in the upcoming weeks.

Andrographis was one of those herbs that I felt stimulated my immune system too much, but that was a few years ago. I now have better tools of controlling this initial immune response that I get from certain supplements.

 

[Tammy]

Great list @Carl ,,,,,,,,I have improved with herbal anti-virals and other supplements. I know it is not an herb but I would add L-lysine to the list.

 

[Hip]

Sorry for OT, but did you post those calculations regarding Andrographis paniculata anywhere or do you know what the approximate needed dosage would be? I happen to have some andrographis on my shelf, so might as well test it in the upcoming weeks.

I have not posted them yet, but will post all my antiviral calculations soon once I've organized all the material.

I calculated that a dose of 40 mg of andrographolide three times daily (40 mg corresponds to 2 grams of Andrographis paniculata) has an in vivo Potency Factor = 971 for EBV. For comparison purposes, 1000 mg of valacyclovir three times daily I calculated has a Potency Factor = 4235 for EBV. So you can see that andrographolide appears to be not far behind a pharmaceutical antiviral in strength.

If you double the andrographolide dose, you double the Potency Factor, but that may not be wise, as studies have found prolonged high-dosage Andrographis paniculata can cause toxicity in the testicles and liver.

The other issue is that because andrographolide also inhibits the Th1 antiviral cytokines interferon gamma and IL-2, that may possibly tend to counter andrographolide's antiviral effects. So if experimenting with Andrographis paniculata / andrographolide as an antiviral for EBV, it may be an idea to take some supplements that increase interferon gamma and IL-2 such as oxymatrine, in order to counter this decrease caused by andrographolide.