High-dose intravenous Vitamin C effective against Epstein-Barr-Virus?

[pattismith]

If you want to do 5 or 10 doses (50-75g), that's 500-1000ml infusion. It would take 2 hours or more at that speed.

more than that in fact, but I don't want to do faster. I found that for my 52 kg, it's a reasonable rate.

I will try 15 mg next time!

 

[Wonkmonk]

more than that in fact, but I don't want to do faster. I found that for my 52 kg, it's a reasonable rate.

Of course, I'm not saying you or anyone should do it faster. Just pointing out the problem

 

[1gooddog]

Hello everyone,

I was looking for ways to fight Epstein-Barr-Virus and I found this study which says high-dose intravenous Vitamin C (7.5g - 50g infusions) can be effective in treating mononucleosis and chronic fatigue syndrome.

Did anyone try this? Is the mentioned dose still safe (sounds high given normal intake is 0.1-0.2g a day)? Are there serious adverse effects expected?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24793092

When first dx in 2007, this was my first treatment for several weeks. I had gone to a different doc in town, a former teaching rheumatologist, who treated conditions that were affecting mainly women. CFS, fibromyalgia - she was very well recommended. There were NO side effects, and it did not work and that is when I returned to my regular doc. Which was a big mistake.

I always said now we know what I DON'T have. I have been saying that for many years.

I also received novocaine injections into the back of my neck for constant pain. That didn't work either.

When I had my second round with Epstein barre in 1967, my doc recommended bed rest. When I wasn't eating he said if you can't eat anything else, at least eat steak. My liver was enlarged.

When my son had mono for a year 1992, finally the only thing that worked was a month of bed rest.

I would recommend managing your symptoms, like we do with CFS, eating healthy, when you can eat, and getting the bed rest we need.

 

[Wonkmonk]

There were NO side effects, and it did not work

I have about the same experience so far. No adverse effects, but also only minimal improvement (if any).

 

[1gooddog]

I had the vit c iv during the worst of my first crashes. I did eventually go into a good remission, but I did not thank the vit C for this as there was so much time passed. At first, I had good remissions.

 

[1gooddog]

"Did anyone try this? Is the mentioned dose still safe (sounds high given normal intake is 0.1-0.2g a day)? Are there serious adverse effects expected?"

Normal does not apply to someone with a disease. Obviously we fall out of the normal range. I have always taken higher doses. It is water soluble. If I see a rose bush with petals gone from bloom, I chew the rosehips. Great source of C.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Morning after 37.5g. Feeling a bit worse again. It's very much like with the first 30g infusion, but not as strong. Feels like the beginning of a sore throat, slight discomfort in the kidney area, overall feeling a bit worse than "normal".

But it's less pronounced than last time. Will see if it goes away again with the second infusion at the same dose.

 

[Wonkmonk]

One observation: The two infusions after which I felt worse were both in the evening after 18:00. The well-tolerated infusions were all early in the day (morning or mid-day).

 

[1gooddog]

I think it is important to note every little detail. I have started notating the weather, for example when I have a crash. I am hypersensitive to humidity and temp change.

For example I am cold but house temp the same. My heart is struggling and having breathing probs. The weather is cool and damp. Kind of a what came first.

One reason I do this is because most of my life was spent in a part of the US that is hot and humid summer, very cold and damp in the winter. I struggled with that environment. I also had central a.c. heat exacerbated my problems, I couldn't stand the cold and wind.

I have relocated and like to make comparisons.

 

[Wonkmonk]

As I had to stop the antibiotics, instead of the antibiotics dose, I did another 37.5g Vitamin C infusion this morning. No adverse reaction, as last time. We plan to start with a different antibiotic this afternoon, and we are going to stop the Vitamin C during the antibiotics treatment. Hopefully I can complete the AB course with the new type of antibiotic.

 

[Wonkmonk]

2 hours after the infusion: Again I am feeling a bit worse. I probably felt best with the 15g infusion so far. Going higher didn't have a benefit.

But maybe the feeling a bit worse after the higher doses is part of the effectiveness, just like there is an initial worsening after starting Valtrex/Valcyte.

I might try to go to 45g just to see what happens, but I'll probably wait until after the antibiotics..

 

[Carl]

I think that you are not doing all that you could by focussing only on vit c. There are many other natural things which can help Natural Killer cells work more normally which might help lessen the impairment which is causing the viruses to multiply due to reduced opposition.

There are many herbs and essential oils with strong antiviral properties. Adding small amounts of a number of things should help reduce viral load. Your immune system will have less of a job to do if it has assistance.

 

[1gooddog]

Carl - could you pls share the anti-viral herbs and oils.

 

[1gooddog]

I have been researching MCAS, as I have had a very difficult week with heart, breathing, weakness and smelling dust wherever I go. My eyes are constantly bloodshot, red and the edges of my eyelids have painful itching. This is more than dry eyes.

I found this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18622141

I just happen to have aspirin and I started taking it.

 

[Carl]

Carl - could you pls share the anti-viral herbs and oils.

There are quite a big list of natural products with antiviral properties. I did see quite a few mentions of antiviral activity while investigating antimicrobial activities while looking through many research papers on essential oils. I have found only a few mentions of epstein barr specifically. It always seems the way, when you are looking for something specific you cannot find it.

Herbal AntiVirals by Stephen Harrod Buhner is a good book which might be worth a look if you have not already. I have his Herbal Antibiotic book which is pretty good and it has served to make me aware of more recent things to research to combat the infection which causes CFS/ME/Fibro. Mine is extremely resistant and even eliminating it's biofilm and all the resistance that brings was not sufficient to help beat it. It did not make it any more susceptible to the antimicrobials that I used. It might not even be bacteria.

Anyway, back on topic. Here are the things that I was able to find. A combination of multiple things should be helpful, particularly helping restore more normal immune system function. Doing that without affecting the autoimmunity in ME caused by Increased Digestive Permeability and nervous system changes will be a challenge.

Licorice root:
Arboviruses, Enterovirus 71, EBV, Herpes Simplex, HIV-1,Influenza A, Japanese Encephalitis virus, Newcastle Disease virus, Pseudorabies virus, Respiratory syncytial virus, SARS related coronavirus (FFM1 & FFM2), Vesicular stomatis virus
Licorice root also has some bacterial efflux pump inhibiting effects and it's actions are systemic.

Berberine containing plants:
Dengue virus, Hepatitis B, Herpes simplex 1 & 2, Human Cytomegalovirus, West Nile virus, Yellow fever virus

Usnea (lichen) - available in powders/capsules? and tinctures:
Herpes simplex, polyomavirus, Junin virus, Tacaribe virus & EBV

Ginger fresh rather than dried is meant to be best:
Hepatitis C, HIV-1, Human cytomegalovirus, Influenza A, Rhinovirus esp 1B

tea tree essential oil
Oregano eo(Carvacrol)

Comparative Study on the Antiviral Activity of Selected Monoterpenes Derived from Essential Oils
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19653195

Andrographis paniculata
simplex virus type 1 (DOI:10.1002/ptr.1765)
Wang, C., Wang, H., Zhang, Y., Guo, W., Long, C., Wang, J. … Sun, X. (2017). Berberine inhibits the proliferation of human nasopharyngeal carcinoma cells via an Epstein Barr virus nuclear antigen 1-dependent mechanism. Oncology Reports, 37, 2109-2120. PMID: 28259949
Monolaurin

Reduced Colloidal Silver NOT Ionic silver - There is a lot of misinformation about Silver. The very few people who have had problems with it consumed massive amounts of IONIC silver mixed with Sodium Chloride to speed up the production process. Not using Distilled water could also of been a factor too. It might not even be Silver itself which is what destroys virus/micro-organisms. Other metals such as copper can have similar properties. The problem is finding very pure copper, I will have to look into that further.

For anyone who is still wary of using silver, despite it's value at defeating pathogens and Reduced Silver has defeated a biofilm/pathogen which healed a part of my digestive system, I suggest that you read the following webpage:
https://www.wgpeters.com/?page_id=932

Articles on Colloidal Silver and how tos on making it including Reducing Ionic Silver to metallic particles.
https://www.cgcsforum.com/index.php?topic=1143.0

The following page shows how to make a current regulating device for making Ionic Silver. Ionic silver can be converted to none charged silver particles by by raising the pH and using a reducing agent. That is what I do. A simpler alternative is to use a current regulating diode. A stirring device is also needed, there are guides on making a magnetic stirrer using a PC fan on youtube. A method of current switching would also be helpful but that can be done in a less technical manner by a switch or even by manually switching the contacts. I did outline a circuit to do that with a simple timer and relay but lost it before I made it when I lost 3 hard drives in the space of a week. There is another design which is more complete with current switching but I dislike the design due to it having a relatively high current, around 10mA, 1 to 3mA is best depending upon the water volume and low voltage ie 12V rather than the 38V that I use ATM. The voltage has to decrease as the resistance of the water decreases in order to maintain the current at a low level. If starting with 12V that gives very little room for reduction which is less than ideal.
http://www.bestyoucanget.com/colloidalsilver.htm
Here is the 12V version. It might be too complicated for most people to build, a current regulating diode is the easiest option IMO:
http://morgandemers.com/silvermax-colloidal-silver-generator/
http://www.silvermedicine.org/faradaycalculator.html
Direct Link to the Silver Calculation spreadsheet, finding the link on the page can be difficult.
http://www.silvermedicine.org/Silver v01[1].09.06.xls
I have attached my updated spreadsheet which has a much longer timeline (excessive), this can be opened with Libreoffice, Openoffice or probably that microsoft version.

Passiflora edulis
Moringa oleifera (leaves) - Murakami A, Kitazono Y, Jiwajinda S, Koshimizu K, Ohigashi H (1998)
Niaziminin, a thiocarbamate from the leaves of Moringa oleifera, holds a strict
structural requirement for inhibition of tumor-promoter-induced Epstein-Barr
virus activation. Planta Medica 64: 319-323.

Bitter melon - Beloin et al 2005, Bourinbaiar & Lee-Huang 1998, Foa-Tomasi et al 1982, Grover & Yadav 2004, Sun et al 2001

Lemon Balm (eo?)oil(Melissa officinalis) - this looks especially helpful
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18693101

Green Tea (EGCG) EBV - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25975988
Baical Skullcap - Konoshima et al 1992
Download this book, it has some useful info. There are a pile of other books on that University server too.
http://priede.bf.lu.lv/grozs/AuguFiziologijas/Augu_resursu_biologija/gramatas/Herbs and Natural Supplements.pdf
cat's claw, Cilantro, Citrus peel (d-limonene), Myrtle

Lomatium (Lomatium dissectum) - small dosages some people develop rashes in larger doses
Elderberry - if you have a good free source of these berries locally then it might be worth getting some
Black seed

Immune system affecting supplements (On top of Vitamin C):

Probiotics, the good bacteria found in yogurt and other fermented foods, stimulate production of a component of the immune system which, in turn, stimulates natural killer cell activity, according to Edward R. Farnworth, editor of the "Handbook of Fermented Functional Foods."

Astragalus (Huang Qi) - immune system stimulant raising CD4 and lowering CD8 and increasing CD4/CD8 ratio and tends to normalise immune system markers. It is often used for fatigue and has shown benefit along with red sage (Dan Shen) herb in CFS/ME. It increases phagocytosis 4x greater than Echinacea. It is contraindicated in late stage Lyme disease as it can increase autoimmune response. This might be an issue with CFS/ME but seeing as it is used for CFS/ME it might be less of a problem.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19398067

Andrographis
Cat’s claw
Ashwagandha - this can cause drowsiness. It does in some way affect thyroid hormone production, increases/promotes, which you might want to read about.
Amla
Resveratrol from japanese knotweed
Echinacea
Turmeric
Garlic
Ginseng
Reishi(Grifola frondosa), maitake(Grifola frondosa) & shiitake(Lentinus edodes)
Cordyceps ( Cordyceps sinensis)
Vitamin C, about a 1000 mg a day, has been found to boost NK cells
Glutathione, an essential antioxidant found in all cells, optimizes killing power of NK cells. Glutathione levels are depressed in states of chronic illness. Supplementing with glutathione may help normalize glutathione levels. In addition, vitamin C, vitamin E, N-acetyl cysteine (NAC), and alpha lipoic acid promote normal levels of glutathione.
Saccharomyces boulardii
beta-glucans - https://www.wellmune.com/ - there are many different types of beta glucans and consuming a mixture might be helpful.

There are some other things, some tried on this forum before but some of it can be toxic. I will not repeat that here. However I must stress that I have not checked for any toxicity in the things I have listed. Some are known to be safe but the rest I cannot guarantee.

If I find any other antiviral essential oils while I am looking at antimicrobial eo I will post them. I do still have a lot to look at. Quorum Sensing Inhibitors are sorted, it's just Efflux Pump Inhibitors and Antimicrobials, the former being the most difficult, which I need to work out.

I would urge anyone to check all of this thoroughly before purchasing or using any of this to make sure it is suitable ie any side effects or possible toxicity.

 

[1gooddog]

There are quite a big list of natural products with antiviral properties. I did see quite a few mentions of antiviral activity while investigating antimicrobial activities while looking through many research papers on essential oils. I have found only a few mentions of epstein barr specifically. It always seems the way, when you are looking for something specific you cannot find it.

Herbal AntiVirals by Stephen Harrod Buhner is a good book which might be worth a look if you have not already. I have his Herbal Antibiotic book which is pretty good and it has served to make me aware of more recent things to research to combat the infection which causes CFS/ME/Fibro. Mine is extremely resistant and even eliminating it's biofilm and all the resistance that brings was not sufficient to help beat it. It did not make it any more susceptible to the antimicrobials that I used. It might not even be bacteria.

Anyway, back on topic. Here are the things that I was able to find. A combination of multiple things should be helpful, particularly helping restore more normal immune system function. Doing that without affecting the autoimmunity in ME caused by Increased Digestive Permeability and nervous system changes will be a challenge.

Licorice root:
Arboviruses, Enterovirus 71, EBV, Herpes Simplex, HIV-1,Influenza A, Japanese Encephalitis virus, Newcastle Disease virus, Pseudorabies virus, Respiratory syncytial virus, SARS related coronavirus (FFM1 & FFM2), Vesicular stomatis virus
Licorice root also has some bacterial efflux pump inhibiting effects and it's actions are systemic.

Berberine containing plants:
Dengue virus, Hepatitis B, Herpes simplex 1 & 2, Human Cytomegalovirus, West Nile virus, Yellow fever virus

Usnea (lichen) - available in powders/capsules? and tinctures:
Herpes simplex, polyomavirus, Junin virus, Tacaribe virus & EBV

Ginger fresh rather than dried is meant to be best:
Hepatitis C, HIV-1, Human cytomegalovirus, Influenza A, Rhinovirus esp 1B

tea tree essential oil
Oregano eo(Carvacrol)

Comparative Study on the Antiviral Activity of Selected Monoterpenes Derived from Essential Oils
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19653195

Andrographis paniculata
simplex virus type 1 (DOI:10.1002/ptr.1765)
Wang, C., Wang, H., Zhang, Y., Guo, W., Long, C., Wang, J. … Sun, X. (2017). Berberine inhibits the proliferation of human nasopharyngeal carcinoma cells via an Epstein Barr virus nuclear antigen 1-dependent mechanism. Oncology Reports, 37, 2109-2120. PMID: 28259949
Monolaurin

Reduced Colloidal Silver NOT Ionic silver - There is a lot of misinformation about Silver. The very few people who have had problems with it consumed massive amounts of IONIC silver mixed with Sodium Chloride to speed up the production process. Not using Distilled water could also of been a factor too. It might not even be Silver itself which is what destroys virus/micro-organisms. Other metals such as copper can have similar properties. The problem is finding very pure copper, I will have to look into that further.

For anyone who is still wary of using silver, despite it's value at defeating pathogens and Reduced Silver has defeated a biofilm/pathogen which healed a part of my digestive system, I suggest that you read the following webpage:
https://www.wgpeters.com/?page_id=932

Articles on Colloidal Silver and how tos on making it including Reducing Ionic Silver to metallic particles.
https://www.cgcsforum.com/index.php?topic=1143.0

The following page shows how to make a current regulating device for making Ionic Silver. Ionic silver can be converted to none charged silver particles by by raising the pH and using a reducing agent. That is what I do. A simpler alternative is to use a current regulating diode. A stirring device is also needed, there are guides on making a magnetic stirrer using a PC fan on youtube. A method of current switching would also be helpful but that can be done in a less technical manner by a switch or even by manually switching the contacts. I did outline a circuit to do that with a simple timer and relay but lost it before I made it when I lost 3 hard drives in the space of a week. There is another design which is more complete with current switching but I dislike the design due to it having a relatively high current, around 10mA, 1 to 3mA is best depending upon the water volume and low voltage ie 12V rather than the 38V that I use ATM. The voltage has to decrease as the resistance of the water decreases in order to maintain the current at a low level. If starting with 12V that gives very little room for reduction which is less than ideal.
http://www.bestyoucanget.com/colloidalsilver.htm
Here is the 12V version. It might be too complicated for most people to build, a current regulating diode is the easiest option IMO:
http://morgandemers.com/silvermax-colloidal-silver-generator/
http://www.silvermedicine.org/faradaycalculator.html
Direct Link to the Silver Calculation spreadsheet, finding the link on the page can be difficult.
http://www.silvermedicine.org/Silver v01[1].09.06.xls
I have attached my updated spreadsheet which has a much longer timeline (excessive), this can be opened with Libreoffice, Openoffice or probably that microsoft version.

Passiflora edulis
Moringa oleifera (leaves) - Murakami A, Kitazono Y, Jiwajinda S, Koshimizu K, Ohigashi H (1998)
Niaziminin, a thiocarbamate from the leaves of Moringa oleifera, holds a strict
structural requirement for inhibition of tumor-promoter-induced Epstein-Barr
virus activation. Planta Medica 64: 319-323.

Bitter melon - Beloin et al 2005, Bourinbaiar & Lee-Huang 1998, Foa-Tomasi et al 1982, Grover & Yadav 2004, Sun et al 2001

Lemon Balm (eo?)oil(Melissa officinalis) - this looks especially helpful
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18693101

Green Tea (EGCG) EBV - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25975988
Baical Skullcap - Konoshima et al 1992
Download this book, it has some useful info. There are a pile of other books on that University server too.
http://priede.bf.lu.lv/grozs/AuguFiziologijas/Augu_resursu_biologija/gramatas/Herbs and Natural Supplements.pdf
cat's claw, Cilantro, Citrus peel (d-limonene), Myrtle

Lomatium (Lomatium dissectum) - small dosages some people develop rashes in larger doses
Elderberry - if you have a good free source of these berries locally then it might be worth getting some
Black seed

Immune system affecting supplements (On top of Vitamin C):

Probiotics, the good bacteria found in yogurt and other fermented foods, stimulate production of a component of the immune system which, in turn, stimulates natural killer cell activity, according to Edward R. Farnworth, editor of the "Handbook of Fermented Functional Foods."

Astragalus (Huang Qi) - immune system stimulant raising CD4 and lowering CD8 and increasing CD4/CD8 ratio and tends to normalise immune system markers. It is often used for fatigue and has shown benefit along with red sage (Dan Shen) herb in CFS/ME. It increases phagocytosis 4x greater than Echinacea. It is contraindicated in late stage Lyme disease as it can increase autoimmune response. This might be an issue with CFS/ME but seeing as it is used for CFS/ME it might be less of a problem.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19398067

Andrographis
Cat’s claw
Ashwagandha - this can cause drowsiness. It does in some way affect thyroid hormone production, increases/promotes, which you might want to read about.
Amla
Resveratrol from japanese knotweed
Echinacea
Turmeric
Garlic
Ginseng
Reishi(Grifola frondosa), maitake(Grifola frondosa) & shiitake(Lentinus edodes)
Cordyceps ( Cordyceps sinensis)
Vitamin C, about a 1000 mg a day, has been found to boost NK cells
Glutathione, an essential antioxidant found in all cells, optimizes killing power of NK cells. Glutathione levels are depressed in states of chronic illness. Supplementing with glutathione may help normalize glutathione levels. In addition, vitamin C, vitamin E, N-acetyl cysteine (NAC), and alpha lipoic acid promote normal levels of glutathione.
Saccharomyces boulardii
beta-glucans - https://www.wellmune.com/ - there are many different types of beta glucans and consuming a mixture might be helpful.

There are some other things, some tried on this forum before but some of it can be toxic. I will not repeat that here. However I must stress that I have not checked for any toxicity in the things I have listed. Some are known to be safe but the rest I cannot guarantee.

If I find any other antiviral essential oils while I am looking at antimicrobial eo I will post them. I do still have a lot to look at. Quorum Sensing Inhibitors are sorted, it's just Efflux Pump Inhibitors and Antimicrobials, the former being the most difficult, which I need to work out.

I would urge anyone to check all of this thoroughly before purchasing or using any of this to make sure it is suitable ie any side effects or possible toxicity.

Thank you for posting. It gives me a starting point.

 

[1gooddog]

I have been researching MCAS, as I have had a very difficult week with heart, breathing, weakness and smelling dust wherever I go. My eyes are constantly bloodshot, red and the edges of my eyelids have painful itching. This is more than dry eyes.

I found this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18622141

I just happen to have aspirin and I started taking it.

 

[1gooddog]

update. By the time I went to bed, after taking 650mg of aspirin, my head had cleared.
This morning heart has stabilized and not feeling winded.
Most importantly for me, I cannot smell the dust.
Took more aspirin this morning. Also, researched aspirin. It has been in use for 2500 years.

I am risking this as I take Coumadin, protonix, and am 70 yrs. It has not bothered my stomach at all. My stomach is protected. As far as protime, I am regularly checked, I will eat more spinach and tomatoes each day and take aspirin as needed, if it works. I may try eliminating protonix for a couple of days.

I take Coumadin just to keep the docs off my back.

I will experiment and not try aspirin for a couple of days. It could always just be a coincidence.

I fully and whole-heartedly believe many older effective treatments have gone by the wayside, that are still effective and desirable.

Some think designer is best. Designer drugs, designer shoes - they seem to think a high cost by a big name designer makes for a better product. Then there is all the advertising and marketing that goes into big-pharma, not to mention lobbyists with pockets lined with gold..


I have a recipe for a home made spray cleaner that I and my daughter have used for years.

 

[1gooddog]

I have about the same experience so far. No adverse effects, but also only minimal improvement (if any).

It is possible the minimal improvement signals some remission. I am not dissing the Vit C and only speak from my experiences.

 

[Wonkmonk]

It is possible the minimal improvement signals some remission.

Doesn't feel like it. Feels more like a very limited, transient symptom relief.