High-dose intravenous Vitamin C effective against Epstein-Barr-Virus?

[Wonkmonk]

I use the 50ml glass bottles with 7.5g Vitamin C. The 5ml ampoules only contain 750mg Vitamin C, so that only makes sense if you want lower doses, perhaps to start with lower doses and check if you can tolerate it.

In the first infusion, I used one 50ml bottle for 250ml glucose infusion (5%). Today I used two 50ml bottles for a 250ml glucose infusion (5%). I am trying to get close to the recommendation you cited (50ml Pascorbin with 100ml infusion). I think whether you take saline, glucose or Ringer-Lactat solution doesn't matter. None of it interferes with Vitamin C. I tend not to use saline (also for the antibiotics etc.), because 100ml saline adds almost 1gram of salt and most of us (me included) have overconsumption of salt, so I'd rather add it to a glucose infusion or Ringer-Lactat.

I did the first infusion slowly over 1 hour to check tolerability. Because it was well-tolerated, I did the 2nd infusion in about 30 minutes. Please note that some infusions have limits as to how much you may get in a short period of time. With 250ml, that's not a problem, but if you are getting higher amounts, that needs to be checked (it's printed on the label of those I use).

Infusions definitely should be given by a healthcare professional, but I have seen you can get everything you need (infusion sets, syringes, needles, cannulas etc.) from Amazon and there are videos on YouTube that show you how to do it. So if no healthcare professional is available or is too expensive, I think these infusions could possibly also be done without them (but I am of course NOT recommending anyone do this!).

I think I am going to continue for a while. It feels OK so far.

 

[pamojja]

In the first infusion, I used one 50ml bottle for 250ml glucose infusion (5%). Today I used two 50ml bottles for a 250ml glucose infusion (5%). I am trying to get close to the recommendation you cited (50ml Pascorbin with 100ml infusion). I think whether you take saline, glucose or Ringer-Lactat solution doesn't matter. None of it interferes with Vitamin C. I tend not to use saline (also for the antibiotics etc.), because 100ml saline adds almost 1gram of salt and most of us (me included) have overconsumption of salt, so I'd rather add it to a glucose infusion or Ringer-Lactat.

Glucose and ascorbic acid share the same transporters .. for example here. Personally am deficient in Sodium and supplement with about 3 g/d elemental (about 5g of salt). And avoid as much as possible any carbs close to AA intake.

Infusions definitely should be given by a healthcare professional, but I have seen you can get everything you need (infusion sets, syringes, needles, cannulas etc.) from Amazon and there are videos on YouTube that show you how to do it. So if no healthcare professional is available or is too expensive, I think these infusions could possibly also be done without them (but I am of course NOT recommending anyone do this!).

Also health care professionals usually have little experience or knowledge. And I wouldn't trust them with ascorbate IVs, unless they educate themself first, as already posted in the first page of this thread:

At this link guidelines for giving IV ascorbate by Robert F. Carthcart and Thomas E. Levy, both most experienced in giving IV vitamin C: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/civprep.pdf

Found an local MD too, who gives inexpensive IVs. However, after realizing she had no idea of doses nor preferable forms for administration (uses a commercial product with only 5g of ascorbic acid - such low doses don't produce higher serum levels than possible with titrating ascorbic acid orally), I didn't.

Instead got Magnesiumsulfate IVs from her, which with a severe deficiency was more urgent for me and less adverse effect prone due to ignorance.

 

[Wonkmonk]

Glucose and ascorbic acid share the same transporters .. for example here.

I think this is only relevant for oral supplementation. Also note that in many natural forms (fruit), both glucose and Vitamin C are present.

And in the blood stream, you always have a lot of glucose, much more than is in a 250ml infusion (12.5g glucose).

I don't think it's a problem.

 

[pamojja]

I think this is only relevant for oral supplementation. Also note that in many natural forms (fruit), both glucose and Vitamin C are present.

And in the blood stream, you always have a lot of glucose, much more than is in a 250ml infusion (12.5g glucose).

I don't think it's a problem.

Its not. Google, and just do the math. Normal values, lets take 100 mg/dl x 5 liter blood on average in a human = only 5 g of glucose!

 

[Wonkmonk]

OK, I was probably wrong. But still I haven't seen a source that says mixing Vitamin C and glucose is any problem.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I definitely feel a bit better after the infusion. Could get out of bed for some time and even could help my mom carry some groceries from the car to the kitchen.

But as of now, I treat this as a placebo effect or coincidence. I plan to up the dose for the next infusion to 3 bottles (22.5g VC), let's see if it makes a difference.

 

[mari_gold]

I definitely feel a bit better after the infusion. Could get out of bed for some time and even could help my mom carry some groceries from the car to the kitchen.

I remember the same effect. Could even drive a car for a short time

But as of now, I treat this as a placebo effect or coincidence. I plan to up the dose for the next infusion to 3 bottles (22.5g VC), let's see if it makes a difference.

I was thinking about other reasons for immediate positive effects of infusions: Could also be due to an increase of blood volume. And most PwME are low in/have low blood volume? (Anyway, Vit C positive effects for me lastet 3-4 days. Couldn't have just been an increase in blood volume...I guess...)

 

[Wonkmonk]

Vit C positive effects for me lastet 3-4 days.

3-4 days after each infusion, right? Did the effect become stronger/weaker/stay the same over time with more infusions?

 

[mari_gold]

Did the effect become stronger/weaker/stay the same over time with more infusions?

Became slightly stronger, but had also relapses due to infections but recovered faster.

I actually don't know what's more effective: Taking IVs each day in a row or taking them once or twice a week to give the body a chance to "use" the Vit C or react to it in some way...

 

[Tammy]

A friend of mine who has done numerous IV C infusions said to make sure to stay really hydrated and eat something before and after. These two things really helped her from any side effects.

 

[pamojja]

OK, I was probably wrong. But still I haven't seen a source that says mixing Vitamin C and glucose is any problem.

Ok, that tells me you haven't yet read the link I posted now already 3 times in this thread.

At this link guidelines for giving IV ascorbate by Robert F. Carthcart and Thomas E. Levy, both most experienced in giving IV vitamin C: http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/civprep.pdf

Though the opposite concern than mine, please read it all (its only 3 pages):

(excerpt) General Comments

I have not had any trouble with these solutions. I hear all sorts of weird stories from patients who have gotten
ascorbate elsewhere. I do not know if it is an acid problem (because ascorbic acid was used rather than sodium
ascorbate) or whether some colleagues get carried away with what other things they add to the intravenous
solutions.

I think that there may be, at times minor troubles with commercially prepared solutions because of the following.
I understand that the U. S. Pharmacopeia specifies that the solutions be made from ascorbic acid and then
buffered with sodium hydroxide or sodium bicarbonate to a pH between 3.5 and 7.0. I worry that 60 grams of
ascorbate at a pH of 3.5 is too acid. I know that Klenner (the first physician who used high dose intravenous
ascorbate by vein) also made his solutions from sodium ascorbate powder despite the fact that he referred to the
solutions in his papers as ascorbic acid. (This fact comes from discussions with Annie Klenner, Fred Klenner's
wife and nurse.).

I watch patients for hypocalcemia (although I have not seen it), hypoglycemia (I encourage patients to eat while
taking the IV), and dehydration (I encourage water and slow the IV down.) I also see headaches afterward but
not so much since I have been emphasizing the continuing high doses of oral ascorbic acid as soon as the IV is
over.

Actually I give oral ascorbic acid while the IV is going to get a double effect. Bowel tolerance goes up while the
IV is running but one has to be careful to stop giving oral C about an hour before the IV stops or else you may
get diarrhea as soon as the IV stops. The oral ascorbic acid is then started again 1/2 to 1 hour after the IVC
stops. ..

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/ivc/civprep.pdf

 

[Wonkmonk]

I may have missed it, but nowhere in the document do I see an objection against using Vitamin C in a 5% glucose preparation.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I actually don't know what's more effective: Taking IVs each day in a row or taking them once or twice a week to give the body a chance to "use" the Vit C or react to it in some way...

In the Hepatitis C trial that appears not to have been finished, they planned 100g once weekly. It may also be a safer option to have a bit more time between infusions.

 

[pamojja]

Though the opposite concern than mine, please read it all

I may have missed it, but nowhere in the document do I see an objection against using Vitamin C in a 5% glucose preparation.

As said, because of the opposite concerns about glucose and ascorbate competing:

hypoglycemia (I encourage patients to eat while
taking the IV),

Note, most blood glucose meters mistake serum ascorbate for glucose and show falsified higher levels. So one has to go by symptoms to avoid hypoglycemia.

If one infuses 12.5g of glucose with 7.5g of ascorbic acid, then the glucose will win, and there shouldn't be any concern for hypoglycemia. However, at that high ratio it definitely will make the AA much less effective.

Once you proceed to higher doses, like the one recommended - 1g/kg body weight - that little glucose isn't of any concern. But at that dose I would be concerned by the broad range of pH allowed by the U. S. Pharmacopeia (between 3.5 and 7.0) for commercial IV preparations. While self-prepared sodium ascorbate would have a pH of 7.4, and which out of safety concerns I would prefer.

 

[pattismith]

I use the 50ml glass bottles with 7.5g Vitamin C. The 5ml ampoules only contain 750mg Vitamin C, so that only makes sense if you want lower doses, perhaps to start with lower doses and check if you can tolerate it.

In the first infusion, I used one 50ml bottle for 250ml glucose infusion (5%). Today I used two 50ml bottles for a 250ml glucose infusion (5%). I am trying to get close to the recommendation you cited (50ml Pascorbin with 100ml infusion). I think whether you take saline, glucose or Ringer-Lactat solution doesn't matter. None of it interferes with Vitamin C. I tend not to use saline (also for the antibiotics etc.), because 100ml saline adds almost 1gram of salt and most of us (me included) have overconsumption of salt, so I'd rather add it to a glucose infusion or Ringer-Lactat.

I did the first infusion slowly over 1 hour to check tolerability. Because it was well-tolerated, I did the 2nd infusion in about 30 minutes. Please note that some infusions have limits as to how much you may get in a short period of time. With 250ml, that's not a problem, but if you are getting higher amounts, that needs to be checked (it's printed on the label of those I use).

Infusions definitely should be given by a healthcare professional, but I have seen you can get everything you need (infusion sets, syringes, needles, cannulas etc.) from Amazon and there are videos on YouTube that show you how to do it. So if no healthcare professional is available or is too expensive, I think these infusions could possibly also be done without them (but I am of course NOT recommending anyone do this!).

I think I am going to continue for a while. It feels OK so far.

thank you for the details, would you tell me if the use of Glucose 5% is advised by Pascorbin, I feel concerned by possible side effect with this fluid:

http://www.baxterhealthcare.com.au/downloads/healthcare_professionals/cmi_pi/glucose 5 Aviva_pi.pdf

 

[Wonkmonk]

Does anyone know how long it takes for Vitamin C levels to normalize after megadose IV infusion?

I.e. how long do I have to wait with the next infusion so as not to produce additive effects on serum levels?

 

[Wonkmonk]

If one infuses 12.5g of glucose with 7.5g of ascorbic acid, then the glucose will win, and there shouldn't be any concern for hypoglycemia. However, at that high ratio it definitely will make the AA much less effective.

Thanks, pamojja, I also read this now in German sources, you are right there seems to be competition for the GLUT transport mechanisms that funnel both glucose and Vitamin C into the cells.

My doc now ordered Ringer-Lactate solution for the next infusions instead of glucose 5%.

Again, thank you for pointing this out, this was very helpful.

 

[pattismith]

Thanks, pamojja, I also read this now in German sources, you are right there seems to be competition for the GLUT transport mechanisms that funnel both glucose and Vitamin C into the cells.

My doc now ordered Ringer-Lactate solution for the next infusions instead of glucose 5%.

Again, thank you for pointing this out, this was very helpful.

I can't read german, would you tell me if the Pascorbin 50 ml contains any additive ?

 

[Wonkmonk]

@pattismith "Die sonstigen Bestandteile sind: Natriumhydrogencarbonat, Wasser für Injektionszwecke." Which means it contains Sodium Bicarbonate and sterilized water.

https://www.docmorris.de/medias/058...hNDlhYWZjMmJlMjJjOGNjNDNhZmNkYzA1ODAzNzYyZGRl

 

[pattismith]

Thank you @Wonkmonk ,

I did my first Vitamine C infusion yesterday (one 50 ml bottle with 100 ml isotonic NaCl),
today I monitored my liver function, and had a slight increased of TGP and PAL, but nothing to worry about.