High dose folate, B2 and elevation of ammonia and uric acid (for dummies)

[Sidereal]

Have you tried hand soaks in bicarb or magnesium oxide?

DH took Tart Cherry Extract for 4 evenings in a row and is feeling increased joint pain. These supps surely mobilize uric acid. Apparently the trouble begins when they are deposited in undesireable places

I've not tried hand soaks. I think this sharp increase in uric acid when energy production is increased is telling us something important about ME/CFS metabolic derangements, I'm just not sure what to do about it.

 

[ahmo]

Your experience reminds me of when GAPS mums report that when they go low oxalate, there's an initial oxalate dumping, often in the form of painful crystals. Could the cherry contain something that's provoking low ox??

 

[Gondwanaland]

Could the cherry contain something that's provoking low ox??

No idea, it's supposed to provoke low uric acid. Perhaps the process is the same.

 

[Sidereal]

@Gondwanaland, do you just use normal baking soda (sodium bicarb) for the soaks?

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland, do you just use normal baking soda (sodium bicarb) for the soaks?

Yup Please report back

 

[Sidereal]

Yup Please report back

Sure will unless my gimped brain forgets to.

Btw it's interesting that you mention Mg oxide helping you in this context. Mg chloride sprayed onto the joint or muscle works for me but makes skin burn. I am going to try oral MgO and see what happens.

 

[Crux]

Another confounding factor in excess uric acid production is; either high intake, or disturbance in the metabolism of .....Fructose.

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnme/2013/682673/

http://chriskresser.com/will-eating-a-paleo-diet-cause-gout

 

[Gondwanaland]

Another confounding factor in excess uric acid production is; either high intake, or disturbance in the metabolism of .....Fructose.

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnme/2013/682673/

http://chriskresser.com/will-eating-a-paleo-diet-cause-gout

Sometime ago I read a really interesting info about it here but now it is asking for a sign up...

Curbing Fructose Intake May Decrease Elevated Uric Acid
Elevated uric acid levels are associated with increased risks for hypertension, gout, and renal impairment.
http://www.renalandurologynews.com/...y-decrease-elevated-uric-acid/article/309628/

 

[Gondwanaland]

I try to read "between the arrows" in this diagram.... The urea cycle isn't fully represented there, and somewhere between
protein --> uric acid + urea
ammonia is lurking.

Somehow in the beginning B12 clearead it completely for me, but afterwards the nutrient imbalances were overwhelming. Taking too much coconut water in place of potassium just messed it all up (fructose + aminos + salicylates).

Now I see the potassium role in clearing ammonia, since it speeds up the urea cycle (=urge to pee)

Here am I in the middle of an insomnia night induced by malic acid (I woke up to pee ). So somehow malic acid also completes the urea cycle

As I posted here

Urea cycle
The urea cycle is a metabolic pathway that results in the formation of urea using two ammonium molecules and onebicarbonate molecule.[1] This route commonly occurs in the hepatic cell of the liver. (The reactions related to the urea cycle produce NADH). This NADH can be produced in two different ways. One of these uses oxaloacetate. In the cytosol there are fumarate molecules. Fumarate can be transformed into malate by the actions of the enzyme fumarase. The malate suffers the actions of malate dehydrogenase enzyme and it becomes oxaloacetate and producing a molecule of NADH. After that, oxaloacetate will be recycled to aspartate, as transaminases prefer these keto acids over the others. This recycling maintains the flow of nitrogen into the cell.

Note to self: take malic acid earlier next time

 

[Sherlock]

I started a trial with cherry extract

Here's a btw: weeks ago, I tried a half bottle of maraschino cherries to no good effect. I forget now what effect I was looking for, because I have been getting increasingly absent-minded for months.

I've also tried lots of high-anthocyanin foods to no effect. So I thought maybe it was the cyanidins that provide the benefit, or even something else. I don't believe the claim that tart cherry does better just because they have less sugar and so are more concentrate in anthocyanins - there is probably something else involved.

Those 2 above experiments failed, yet my capsules do wonders - especially against Mast Cells.

but stopped after taking it only 2x due to a side effect - hemorrhoid

Now that you mention it... something similar here for me as I increased dose to 4-6 caps per day. (And now I've had my first hemorrhoid online conversation It's not something that as a child I dreamed of doing, but it is valuable. ) C'est ma vie.

Mg is my antidote, as it purportedly strengthens artery walls. It's possible that countering the problem also helps avoid any aneurym, e.g., elsewhere Might all be related to a genetic connective tissue disorder, too.

in the year before my DVT

So you've had excess clotting, then maybe now insufficient clotting. Btw, anticoagulants have been traditionally used on the venous side, and anti-platelet drugs on the artery side -- and both in the middle (heart, Afib).

bicarb

I do see sometimes see people say they take bicarb as if it were any drug; say once in the morning. But for PEM. it has to be peri-workout. If workouts create too much uric acid, then that critical timing would also presumably apply.

 

[Sherlock]

I think this sharp increase in uric acid when energy production is increased is telling us something important about ME/CFS metabolic derangements, I'm just not sure what to do about it.

Amen, and if a person goes in and out of sickness, I think that gives an advantage of perspective - like being one's own twin study. That's how it is for me.

Curbing Fructose Intake May Decrease Elevated Uric Acid

I really, really hate to be in on the current ant-sugar trendiness... but I've been zeroing in on something very recently.

I've been varying heavy workouts (squats) together with whey (or soy isolate) consumption and sucrose consumption. With sucrose, I take iodine tablets to suppress candida GI effects (and that tactic works well). On some such days afterwards, I have to get up every hour at night (we need a polyuria smiley for comments like this), and sometimes I don't. General whole-body inflammation has to be present, e.g. from a virus cold. With that prime condition satisfied, it seems that maybe sugar = polyuria. The best antidote is two ibuprofens at bedtime.

I could easily refrain from sugar, but without PWO sugar I won't recover nearly as well and will be possibly plain tired for days. My current guess is that the extra surge of insulin which sucrose provides makes for powerful transport into the cells for whatever molecules are needed for recovery - including but not limited to the fuel that's also needed to eject waste products from each cell.

Satellite cells might very well be involved. (Muscle cells have many nuclei, plus there are spare nuclei [aka satellite cells] waiting alongside each myocyte for when they are needed to oversee all of the relevant post-exercise chemical processes.)

Quick ending: the sugar then also maybe-probably stirs up my joints, which get into a self-perpetuating cycle and that needs ibuprofen to disrupt the cycle - else it gets worse and worse by itself.

I have never had gout - but had a parent who took allopurinol for uric acid stones prevention.


That's all kind of disjointed but I'm posting it anyway in case somebody has some similar observations. I am tired of typing.

 

[Sherlock]

I am going to try oral MgO and see what happens.

Keep in mind that IIRC @Gondwanaland takes that low absorption kind because otherwise she absorbs too much.

 

[Sidereal]

Keep in mind that IIRC @Gondwanaland takes that low absorption kind because otherwise she absorbs too much.

Right, I knew MgO wasn't absorbed too well (hence why I never used it before) but I figured I'd give it a try for the uric acid issue and see what happens.

 

[Sidereal]

Amen, and if a person goes in and out of sickness, I think that gives an advantage of perspective - like being one's own twin study. That's how it is for me.


I really, really hate to be in on the current ant-sugar trendiness... but I've been zeroing in on something very recently.

I've been varying heavy workouts (squats) together with whey (or soy isolate) consumption and sucrose consumption. With sucrose, I take iodine tablets to suppress candida GI effects (and that tactic works well). On some such days afterwards, I have to get up every hour at night (we need a polyuria smiley for comments like this), and sometimes I don't. General whole-body inflammation has to be present, e.g. from a virus cold. With that prime condition satisfied, it seems that maybe sugar = polyuria. The best antidote is two ibuprofens at bedtime.

I could easily refrain from sugar, but without PWO sugar I won't recover nearly as well and will be possibly plain tired for days. My current guess is that the extra surge of insulin which sucrose provides makes for powerful transport into the cells for whatever molecules are needed for recovery - including but not limited to the fuel that's also needed to eject waste products from each cell.

Satellite cells might very well be involved. (Muscle cells have many nuclei, plus there are spare nuclei [aka satellite cells] waiting alongside each myocyte for when they are needed to oversee all of the relevant post-exercise chemical processes.)

Quick ending: the sugar then also maybe-probably stirs up my joints, which get into a self-perpetuating cycle and that needs ibuprofen to disrupt the cycle - else it gets worse and worse by itself.

I have never had gout - but had a parent who took allopurinol for uric acid stones prevention.


That's all kind of disjointed but I'm posting it anyway in case somebody has some similar observations. I am tired of typing.

I have that problem too with sugar and joint pain, polyuria and mast cell activation. Yet if I cut it out completely out of my diet I get sicker overall. I think that may be because lowering insulin levels further worsens the already existing problem of potassium wasting from cells.

Personally I find antihistamines like benadryl far more useful than ibuprofen.

I wonder if purinergic signalling is what's driving PEM.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I think this sharp increase in uric acid when energy production is increased is telling us something important about ME/CFS metabolic derangements, I'm just not sure what to do about it.

I hope we find out soon

(And now I've had my first hemorrhoid online conversation It's not something that as a child I dreamed of doing, but it is valuable. )

Me neither, what do you think

So you've had excess clotting, then maybe now insufficient clotting.

Now insufficient blood

Btw, anticoagulants have been traditionally used on the venous side, and anti-platelet drugs on the artery side

I never knew there were two of those

My current guess is that the extra surge of insulin which sucrose provides makes for powerful transport into the cells for whatever molecules are needed for recovery - including but not limited to the fuel that's also needed to eject waste products from each cell.

I have been on a no sugar diet for a few weeks and when I ate it again it was so RELIEVING

Keep in mind that IIRC @Gondwanaland takes that low absorption kind because otherwise she absorbs too much.

I still think that the other side of the molecule is the problem for me. Glycine, sulfate will increase ammonia.

Yet if I cut it out completely out of my diet I get sicker overall. I think that may be because lowering insulin levels further worsens the already existing problem of potassium wasting from cells.

Also there is something that insuline is needed by the thyroid to either produce T4 or convert it to T3, or both, I don't remember now.

I wonder if purinergic signalling is what's driving PEM.

I would love to read further about it.

 

[picante]

This is all from Wikipedia:

Magnesium oxide + water: "Magnesium hydroxide forms in the presence of water (MgO + H2O → Mg(OH)2), but it can be reversed by heating it to separate moisture."

"Magnesium hydroxide is an inorganic compound with the chemical formula of hydrated Mg(OH)2. As a suspension in water, it is often called milk of magnesia because of its milk-like appearance. [...] Magnesium hydroxide is a common component of antacids and laxatives; it interferes with the absorption of folic acid and iron.[4]"​

So if you ingest it in/with water, you're taking an antacid. This would only benefit you if your stomach is too acid.

If you take it transdermally in a footbath, it wouldn't lower your stomach pH. @Gondwanaland, have you used it in a footbath as well as orally?

 

[Gondwanaland]

have you used it in a footbath as well as orally?

Never. But I always took it away from food. My folic acid and iron blood levels were always excellent. They seem to be absorbed alright. The problem is metabolization

 

[Gondwanaland]

(we need a polyuria smiley for comments like this)

I know this isn't it, but couldn't resist

 

[Sidereal]

I would love to read further about it.

These articles by Cort may interest you then, the bits about purinergic receptors in PEM:

http://www.cortjohnson.org/blog/201...-exertional-malaise-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

http://phoenixrising.me/archives/5790

http://www.cortjohnson.org/blog/2014/11/22/infections-genes-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

 

[Sherlock]

I have that problem too with sugar and joint pain, polyuria and mast cell activation.

& @Gondwanaland

Well, last night I did as follows: heavy, leg-burning exercise (squats), plus repeated whey and also other calories -- but zero sucrose. I did not have to wake up repeatedly through the night because of polyuria - just once as has always been normal for me. So that's for now a diagnostic sucess, though who knows if it is repeatable.

No escalating joint inflammation, though I did take an ibuprofen in the middle of the night.

Also, I do believe I am noticing that squats tend to later make non-involved tendons hurt. That seems like a systemic effect from muscular exertion.

Still up in the air: do the bad effects from sugar result from the sugar getting absorbed into the bloodstream and creating some downstream problem, or do the bad effects occur because sugar feeds some gut yeast or bacteria which then creates the problem.


Also, I noticed this:

The serum uric acid level of 30 patients with a rupture of the Achilles tendon was compared with that of 30 healthy control subjects matched for age and sex. In patients with a ruptured Achilles tendon the serum uric acid level was significantly higher than in the control subjects. This finding was not dependent on sex or race. It is possible that hyperuricaemia is a contributing factor in rupture of the Achilles tendon and warrants further study. It is suggested that this finding might be related to an adverse effect on the tendon's nutrition.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6469345
1984

So maybe those with hyperuricemia are especially at risk from the tendon rupture associated (boxed warning) with fluoroquinolone abx.