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High Dosage methylfolate users

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by zzz0r, Apr 30, 2014.

  1. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Has anybody here tried methionine as a substitute or in addition to taking methylfolate + B12? Methionine is the byproduct of those two combined. It may be a useful bypass for those having a lot of trouble getting the right folate + B12 ratio.

    SAMe, which is the next thing downstream from methionine could also possibly be helpful.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2014
  2. Dfox

    Dfox

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  3. Dfox

    Dfox

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    Hi Caledonia: Thanks for your responses to me. I was taking the methionine for a while and think I was doing better on it than NAC. Today I did not take anything, but feel awful. I've been trying to wean down on a bad boy benzo, and it has been very rough. I'm kind of "trying" different things, but tired!!

    I tried SAMe for a few days, but it seemed to make me crazier lol. If anyone needs discounted supplements we have plenty at my house. lol

    Thanks, Dfox
     
  4. Dfox

    Dfox

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    Yes, and I found someone on this site that said they started doing the protocol at cpnsupport.org. Sorry I can't remember who.

    Dfox
     
  5. Dfox

    Dfox

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    Hi zzz0e: I have also been dxd with Lyme, and thought I was doing ok on the protocol, but have recently started with all kinds of issues. I did oxygen therapy in 2001 and was "well" for a long time until I started messing with hormones and did not fix my gut. I have been doing a paleo diet for 6 months and although I have been able to "hang on" to some weight, my food sensitivities seem to be getting worse. I don't know if you can answer some questions on the b protocol for me, but I would like someone to give a try as I was working with a methylation dr in Houston, but he left town, so I have been on my own since then. So here are my questions :)

    1) do you always add the mb12 first bf the m-folate?
    2) my multi has mb12, ab12 and methylfolate, should I stop this?
    3) Why does the histamines seem to be such a problem with this protocol? Is this bc of the raise in dopamine
    4) why do you stop eating the folic acid containing foods? Is it bc the folic acid in the food keeps the mthf from being absorbed?
    5) will the methylation working be able to detox all toxins, including mercury?
    6) is the homocysteine level a good measure the amt of methylation?
    7) Are there any tests to keep an eye on things, so t speak?
    8) When you get anxiety, does this mean methylation is moving too fast?
    9) How much niacin do you take if that is the remedy for too much methylation?
    10) How does the methylation affect cortisol?

    Thanks for the help. :)
    Dfox
     
  6. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Methionine and NAC are in two different places in the methylation cycle. NAC would just help with making glutatathione. Methionine is much farther upstream and would help create methyl groups for methylating 40 reactions in the body, then go to homocysteine, then part of it would go to make NAC and glutathione.

    I've tapered off benzos three times. The method that worked for me, is to first get on a consistent dose of the benzo, so I wasn't experiencing mini withdrawals every day. Then I would reduce by a small amount and hold. At the one week point, I would get a big increase in anxiety/panic (this is the rebound anxiety caused by withdrawal). Once I was past that, I was stable on the reduced dose. Then I would wait a week or so until I felt ready to tackle the next reduction.
     
  7. Dfox

    Dfox

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    Thanks again Caledonia. I hope you don't mind answering a couple more questions. My problem has always been sleep issues (surprise). I slept about 4 hrs last nite, but some of that was at 6 this am after taking a sleep supplement. Do you have a doctor you recommend for methylation. I paid for the Yasko test, and recently sent off the 23andMe. I've spent a fortune on testing and doctors, and I have made some progress, but not enough to function. I talked to Sterling Hill at mthfrsupport.com yesterday, and she is now looking at the low G6pd enzyme, which I have had in the past at the low end of normal. Also, are you doing the high b protocol?

    Thanks, Dfox
     
  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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    If I was going to see anyone, it would be the Heartfixer (who happens to be in driving distance, so I could potentially do both a phone consult or an in-person appointment). I think anybody trained by Ben Lynch could also be good. So far I haven't been impressed with things people have told me about a few docs on the MTHFRsupport.com list. They seem to be stuck in a Pfeiffer / Walsh mindset, i.e. prescribing supps for things in the methylation cycle that are low, which might be somewhat helpful, but not really understanding whole methylation cycle.

    There is a Find A Practitioner link in my signature.

    I'm not doing high B's. I'm responding ok to low B's.

    I had a question for you, which was how much methionine and SAMe were you taking?

    Also do you mean low G6pd is causing people to need huge amounts of B's? I talked to Sterling about this, and she said there were a zillion mutations that could cause this.
     
  9. Dfox

    Dfox

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    When is the last time you talked to Sterling, because now she is convinced that taking fluoroquinolones (given a particular snp that she identifies in a post on her sit) in regards to being floxed. I have been floxed MANY times as I took tons of abx for Lymes.

    It appears that most g6pd low people do need lots of b6, but she may be changing her mind on that in regards to that in view of the class action law suit with the quinolones?

    Did you have low g6pd and were you able to fix yours. I still feel gut is a huge part of this. I did attend a webinar seminar on this at the National College of Naturopathic Medicine a few months ago. I need to be on LDN, but can't bear the thought with the sleep issues too. They are using some neutracuticals and antibiotics in relation to this gut dysbiosis.

    Thanks for the word on your thoughts about the docs on mthfrsupport group. I'm not sure it would be worth consulting with them, as I feel gut first/diet, methylation, etc.

    Dfox
     
  10. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    Ok guys here we go again as I have made an important finding and I want to share it with all of you.

    First I want to start like this. I am a big fan of the work that Freddd has done however I am constantly researching into the methylfolate thing and I am now inclined to believe that the constant increase of the dosage to avoid symptoms IS wrong.

    The reason for that is that there are evidence that the different group symptoms due to methylfolate supplementation that Freddd has very well established are due to different underlying problems. I do not know why if someone increases the mfolate dosage can get out of these symptoms for a while but I do not believe it is the right approach.

    The worst symptom for me due to methylfolate supplementation is insomnia. It is the worst symptoms because everything else I can take it and go on but insomnia really ruines my day and thinking and clarity and energy so I can not deal with.
    I do also get other symptoms like flue muscle and joint pain and less headaches than other people tho.

    Anyway I have found out that insomnia it is caused by increased adrenaline. When starting methylfolate supplementation this is drammatically increasing the conversion of norepinephrine to epinephrine(adrenaline). Increase adrenaline gives you the so called symptom "tired but wired" that everyone in the forum is talking about that keeps you awake the nights.

    Many people might have noticed that insomnia due to methylfolate supplementation comes together with very tight muscles. At the start It could be a low potassium symptom but after getting adequate potassium I know that it comes with insomnia as a group of symptoms and it is due to methylfolate (low potassium can still give you tight neck muscles).

    The real trick is how to stop that now that we know. Ok adrenaline is increased when cortisol is low and it acts as a back up system for the body. Cortisol is produced by the adrenal glands. So low cortisol could possibly means adrenal fatigue so someone should generally support his/hers adrenals with supplements that are well known and described in other threads.

    However many people do not know the importance of vitamin c for the adrenals AND in particular the critical role that it plays for the production of cortisol. The case for many people is that they are out of vitamin c in the adrenals althought it may seems adaquate in serum. People that need vitaminc for the production of cortisol need to supplement large amounts of vitamin c above 5g nearly close to 10g daily for those that can tolerate it and it must be in ester-c form or in liposomal form for better absorption.

    Speaking for myself I need at least 6g daily to be ok. However I had a noticable difference even with 3g. Ofcourse adrenal burn out could be secondrary to thyroid issues. BUt my point for everyone reading this thread is to keep searching for the reason that methylfolate is giving you these sideffects and do not stop until you find out why. Talk with other people that are having similar problems with you and problems tolerating methylfolate, you could learn for their experience.

    I am also keep searching to find out about the other group of symptoms due to methylfolate. I am trying to find out if flue like symptoms due to methylfolate supplementations are being caused by systemic candida overgrowth but until I know for sure have a look at the insomnia and the symptoms that goes with that group :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2014
  11. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I talked to Sterling pretty recently, like two months ago about the high need for methylfolate problem.

    Do you mean instead that low g6dp = susceptiblity to getting floxed? I don't know my g6dp status or how to measure it.

    Yasko and others would agree with you - gut first. I've done a lot of research on this and the 4R Gut Rebuilding program (linked in my signature) seems to be the best, most comprehensive approach.
     
  12. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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  13. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I don't know. That's what I'm trying to figure out. I think @Dfox probably went off on another tangent and there is no relationship?
     
  14. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Wow, I must have missed one post and so no longer received these posts. I was a couple pages behind.

    My last post was May 16, 3 weeks ago. I listed there a number of supps I no longer need since stopping the vegetable folinic and reducing the load on adrenals. In this list I included thyroid (T3), which was only temporary, one of the several that were impacting negatively on adrenals at this critical time. I've since resumed T3 at 30mcg, half of what I took a year ago when starting Freddd's Protocol. However, the glutamine and inositol are now permanently on the finished list.

    The ensuing 3 weeks have been high drama for me. Terminating my primary cooked vegetable (1-2 small zucchini/day) while I was still drinking fresh juice and eating bone broth, still engaged in active detox protocol, sent me into a raging detox response. I’d been so conservative about my detox choices, and it was now a galloping horse, with me desperately trying to exert some control.

    I was continuing on w/ my coffee enema protocol, which included water enemas before and after 2 separate coffee enemas. I used chlorella along w/ a number of other thins in these water enemas, and footbaths w/ clay and charcoal to capture the toxins. I also needed additional support w/ poultices to liver and adrenals, made of chlorella, clay, charcoal, distilled water.

    What was remarkable during this period was that with the clearing of my adrenals, the first phase of this post-zucchini detox, I had absolutely no anxiety, irritability, agitation. I was resourceful and relilient. this new temperament, personality transplant is very real indeed. Issues I'd spent decades chasing with all manner of therapies cleared as the toxins dumped from my adrenals.

    Then I entered a phase of what I can only think was eliminating the last and smallest neurotoxins. I could feel waves of sensations moving through my body. I added some zeolites (fulvic/humic) to my enemas, footbaths, poultices. It felt like I was trying to strain molasses through silk. Once I finally had captured the toxic sludge, the next stage was to remove it. It felt like a solid block stuck in my bowel. On the final night, I was up most of the night doing enemas w/ soap, which I'd not done in the past. Once this stuff moved, I needed to purify my space, burn sage and bicarb, fan and open windows, shower repeatedly w/ handsfull of bicarb. This was like nothing I;d ever experienced. I felt like I'd just eliminated the spawn of satan. Truly.

    But the mop-up continued. I'm not sure now why I switched to footbaths as primary method, probably because by this time I hoed to never see another enema bucket for a very long time. but in the footbaths I never thought to add Na, which was always part of my enemas. And so over the course of 1 critical day, as I felt symptoms shifting through my body from toxins to neuropathy of a different sort, I entered the land of Na depletion. I did footbath after footbath, pouring in at least a week's worth of Ca, C, K+...but no Na. In the end, I needed to call the ambulance, spent a night in hospital w/ a saline drip.:bang-head:

    When I got home the next day I immediately started the enemas to replenish the Na. things went ok. Then, about 2 days later, in response to other symptoms, which I'd have to review my notes to track, I added a bit more Na to footbath, then a handful. WHOOPS! In my over-compensation, I flooded my now-empty-of-toxins receptors with Na. A near disaster. There was no way I was going to go to hospital again, I needed to manage this. I flushed over and over to move it out. My legs and arms were like stuffed sausages, holding all that salt in solution. It's taken nearly 2 weeks to rid myself of this overdose. And even today I'm going for another enema to get the last bit to move out. I've finally had 2 nearly unbroken nights of sleep in a row.

    The BIGGEST LESSON: If you're stopping vegetable folate, do it gradually. And, RESPECT HUMBLE SALT.

    The good news is I truly feel I've completed a major detox of my body, ridding it of a lifetime's accumulation. Which means that simple maintenance will keep me clean into the future. The adrenal clearing has been massive. I now, for the first time in over a decade, have almost no tinnitus. Sometimes absolute silence. But, as I'm still disadvantaged by excess Na in the system, at times a small hssss.

    I'm maintaining at 15mg Mfolate, 25mgMB12, 3.3mg AdB12. There have been stretches during this period when my body has rejected folate for 2-3 days at a time, with no deficiency symptoms. Also, it's mostly still rejecting my low dose B complex. Again, something connected to too much for the adrenals to handle.

    Here's an excellent Nutritional Values website, for folate and other food values: http://foodinfo.us/SourcesUnabridged.aspx?Nutr_No=435

    Well, now that I've finally put my experience into writing, I'll respond to a few things that were on the thread.

    @caledonia
    I don't know, it certainly helped w/ stabilizing my mood. However I can say that lithium is one of the many things my body has rejected during this period. I haven't used it for about 3 weeks. Each time I ask, 'will we resume this?', body says yes...And moods have been calm and mellow like no other time in my life.

    @Dfox
    I get my royal jelly from iherb, brand Paradise.

    My life-long insomnia has resolved since Freddd's Protocol. I even take my 3rd dose folate at bedtime, have frequently needed an additional B12 at bedtime to quell high folate issues when I've increaed doses.

    I'm working on a Guide to Freddd's Protocol, just have to get the formatting right, make it available. Maybe this will help:
    @zzz0r
    As I noted above, my insomnia has totally resolved w/ Mfolate/B12. Even during this most intense 3 week period of my life, I could doze in between needing to get up to treat myself. Miraculous!

    I'm using C in footbaths daily. I assumed it was largely for reducing histamines, but might well be for adrenals, as you mention. Ranges from 1 tsp to 1 Tb ascorbic acid in FB, 1/2 times/day. Also in my enemas.

    Well, thanks for listening! I'm so happy to be summarizing my experiences, instead of immersed in them! I've had some intense periods in my life, but nothing like this. And I've lived to tell the tale.:woot::balloons:


    PS Also, all my mast cell symptoms, which are directly related to adrenal stress, disappeared in this period. And my formerly dry skin is now moist. Happy Adrenals:thumbsup::thumbsup::balloons:
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014
  15. sregan

    sregan Senior Member

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    No no Not TMI!! Please don't apologize, this is very good information if not the best IMO. I read so much good stuff on here about supplements and such but what I always have questions about is usually how much, when do you take and what do you combine with, with food or without. How to know when I might need something is superb information!!

    This is a great thread and this stuff is scary. Anyone who has been there knows how hard it would be to throw your natural instinct to the wind and push the gas pedal down (more folate) instead of hitting the brakes when you start feeling worse. Esp those who have others depending on them.

    Since I started attempting methylation supps and had an initial terrific experience the 2-3 times I did a startup. But after stopping the last time (due to increase adverse symptoms) I've been struggling to hold on. This type of specific "guinea pig" information is critical to any of us who believe this is probably our way out but may need to pass through the gates of hell to get there.

    I am confused between "methyl trapping" and folate deficiency. Seems one would cause the other. When I started feeling really bad from the last time taking just methyl B12 helped (I am MTRR++). I assumed I was trapped. Minerals seemed to help also. I've gone in a supplement circle as to what I thought was helping. Seems to be different all the time. Lately I am very food sensitive and don't seem to be healing properly (joints especially, broken toes, knuckles that feel broken). I'm not able to see much lately but a downward spiral.
     
    ahmo likes this.
  16. sueami

    sueami Senior Member

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    I woke up in the night last night, heart racing, feeling high anxiety, though anxiety also feels like heart issues so I'm never entirely sure, but it's a reasonable guess that it was largely anxiety, and I noticed some of the neck and shoulder stiffness that some have mentioned. I've taken to putting a glass of water next to my bed with 400 mg of Nu Salt/potassium chloride (going to get powdered potassium gluconate today instead) dissolved in it. I drank that down and everything resolved within 10 or 15 minutes or so.

    I hate the feeling that I've gotten myself into something that I can't back out of too, @sregan . Reminds me of transitional labor (haha, but *shudder* also). I'm going to start by trying to replenish my potassium stores (I drank 400 mg at bedtime so I'm assuming that the healing that goes on while we sleep depleted that and I don't have a cellular buffer). I'm going to try 4-5 doses a day at the 400 mg level, plus potassium foods, and see how much of my anxiety and speedy heart feelings are simply potassium depletion.
     
  17. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    Very interested in this thread, guys and especially ahmo's story because I eat a lot of zucchini (and my adrenals are my weakest link). I've been titrating up methylation supplements for 14 months and currently take 4 mg of folate around 6 AM and 6 mg of mb12 spaced out during the day along with 2 mg of adb12.

    Of all the methylation supplements, I think I'm most sensitive to folate - increases make me feel like I have the flu which lasts a few days to a week. My impression is that any methylation increases causes an acceleration of heavy metal detox. I say this because even after 14 months of increasing, I don't have that experience of feeling better with higher doses.

    I know Fred considers this a rare case and I have not let it stop me from pushing forward with methylation. I believe it's detox that I'm experiencing because the symptoms I get from increasing folate and B12 and lecithin for example are similar to what I experience from chelation which I have also pursued with a lot of determination for the last 14 months.

    Anyway, after reading this thread I'm thinking of spacing apart my folate dose and trying out the reduction of zucchini...

    Any other ideas appreciated too.
     
  18. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    Hello howirecovered. It does not have to do just with zucchini. It has to do generally with green vegetables that most of them contain folinic acid. Folinic acid can block the uptake of methylfolate. It has been noticed by me, ahmo and freddd.

    Also you mentioned that you have weak adrenals? Do you get insomnia as a methylfolate side effect?
     
  19. howirecovered

    howirecovered Senior Member

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    yes thanks for the reminder - this is actually one of the most popular posts on my blog, where I listed both high sulfur and high folate foods. I also eat a fair amount of asparagus and avocado. Hell, I'm not sure there are any vegetables I eat that aren't high in folate...

    I'm not sure if this qualifies as insomnia but whenever I increase methylation my sleep is disrupted. I tend to wake after an hour and a half or two hours. I go back to sleep but it's not the same. Takes a few days to get over it. I also tend to wake earlier in the morning.
     
  20. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @howirecovered: just curious...how big is your mfolate dose? How high have you gone? I haven't read your blog lately but really got a lot out of it when I first began my methylation journey. Thanks a million for the great info. :D

    Also, just food for thought...you may not need extra methyl donors like lecithin right now, beyond the foundational "Deadlock Quartet".

    I suggest this because I was doing quite well on high dose mfolate, mB12, with some LCF and adB12. But I decided to seek a little more "oomph" after the newness of actually having stable energy again wore off, so I tried SAM-e. I liked it very well for about 2 weeks and then it seemed to destabilize me fairly severely. I started having paradoxical folate deficiency-type bowel issues again, and some sleep issues, etc. I couldn't get the sleep issues under control until I finally took my B12 down. Now I'm experimenting with much lower doses of mfolate and mB12 to see where that takes me. Too soon to tell yet, but that's where I'm at.

    Point being maybe you don't need the lecithin right now. Personally I love lecithin and take NT Factor per Radio's suggestion, but realize some people may not need it at a given point in time, the way I don't seem to need SAM-e. Have you tried cutting it from your regimen for a while?

    If you consider cutting the neurotransmitter support of lecithin you might want to wait to do that until you've seen if cutting veggies solves your problem. Again, I'm just throwing the suggestion out there as food for thought if you haven't tried it already.
     

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