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High Dosage methylfolate users

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by zzz0r, Apr 30, 2014.

  1. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    @whodathunkit you mentioned that you went all the way up to 40mg of methylfolate? Did you increase in order to get out of deffeciency or you are just testing? Because if you had deffeciency symptoms and you were chasing them all the way up to 40mg and then you were able to go down to 22 again that is very encouraging for us as well.

    As I want to believe that the body needs high ammounts of methylfolate in order to heal at the deepest layers and then the demand will go down. But we do not have a report for anyone up until now that this is happening
  2. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @zzz0r: I'm not sure of the exact theory. But it did happen with Freddd. I think too many people on this board discount his experience because he has so many different and unusual genetic mutations. They're like, it won't work for everyone like it did for him because he's so different than everyone else.

    But what if, rather than making his experience with methylfolate unique, his mutations only made the healing more difficult? That is, maybe methylfolate works the same for everyone, but the level of difficulty people have with dosage and healing is simply dependent upon the mutations they have and what other supplements they're taking? Methylfolate gets the blame because it stirs everything up, as it were, but in reality it's the good guy and other players (thiols/sulfur, ammonia, other nutrient deficiencies, etc.) are the bad actors.

    Dunno, just thinking out loud.

    I also wonder what "saturation" has to do with methylfolate and healing. Meaning, if we are deficient in folate then we could soak it up like a sponge for a while, needing ever-increasing amounts to allow healing to take place. But then, once our cells are "saturated" then it would take a much smaller amount to keep saturated, but the healing could still keep going even at the deepest levels, because the level of folate is stable.

    Think of a giant sponge in a 12" high bucket filled with water. Until the sponge gets saturated it may soak up all 12" of the water you put into the bucket. But after the sponge is completely saturated, it may only take 0.5" of water to keep it saturated. Maybe it's the same with taking a large dose of folate for a while and then being able to reduce.

    But again, just thinking out loud. I am NOT stating this as a fact. It's an idea. Saturation seemed to be a factor in my potassium deficiency symptoms, so maybe it's the same with methylfolate.

    Also to consider: it seems like everyone has this one "tip-off" symptom that tells them they're experiencing some level of paradoxical deficiency. I think with ahmo it's little zits, I believe on the neck. With Freddd I think it was angular cheilitis. With me it seems to be minor IBS symptoms. Etc.

    When I was radically increasing folate I was feeling pretty good but kept experiencing these IBS symptoms (loose bowels, gut rumbles from small amounts of gas, etc.). So I kept increasing and things got better, but never entirely resolved. When I finally got all the way to 40mg I thought, something's not right. It seemed excessively high. So I experimented a bit based on what I read around here, and it turned out I was out of balance with some of the other B vitamins. Correcting the B deficiency cleared up the trouble and I reduced my dosage of folate.

    However, I'm still keeping my dosage much higher than the norm because I'm not willing to take the chance on lowering it at this point, not with the progress I'm making with my female health problem. I could be drawing the wrong conclusion from my experience...maybe it's not folate that's helping my problem, it could be something else...but I'm just not willing to chance it.

    So, since there doesn't seem to be any real harm to taking this dose of folate for a while (not forever), I'm going to hang with it.

    Point being, I'm not entirely sure if simply correcting the B deficiency allowed me to reduce dosage without problems, or if I'm saturated enough to reduce dosage without problem, or if I've simply healed enough to reduce the dosage without problem. Or it could be a combo of all three factors that allowed me to reduce.

    I will definitely report when I begin to reduce my dosage from the 26.4mg/day that it is currently to more normal levels. IMO that will be the real litmus test of the viability of reducing dosage. But that will be six months or more, depending upon how I progress with the non-methylation problem I'm using folate to address. It's a chronic, long-term, intractable problem that will take a deal more of healing to correct.

    Hope that clarifies things a bit.
  3. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @whodathunkit You once again top the charts, not only in dosage but in your ability to explain things:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    Your comments re saturation sound spot on to me. As well as re Fred having overcome obstacles that might be greater, but not different, from the rest of us. When I commented on how much better I was feeling, contemplating exercise, Fred said a very wise thing:
    That fits the notion of saturation, even of my recent experience of moving zones of healing. I think we've been so depleted for so long, that there's a lot of work for the body to do to repair itself.

    My task today was to review the scanty info sources I have about folate. I still don't exactly understand it. Here's a layperson's guide to methylation, where I was going to start: http://autismnti.org/yourbodyschemistry.html

    And, I won't actually be taking that walk today, I was up at night for extra K+ after increasing folate:rolleyes:, and today's my going-to-town day.

    BTW, I just posted elsewhere, but seem to not have made this blunder on this thread, re my K+ dosages.
    Not for the first time I've read the NOW K+ Gluconate label incorrectly. 3 gm is the amount of substance in the 1 tsp I frequently need when I've added folate. HOWEVER, that yields 540 mg potassium. The amount I'm generally needing in my AM/PM doses, aside from folate additions, is 800mg AM/PM. My bad.:redface:
    whodathunkit likes this.
  4. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @ahmo, I did read that in the other thread about your potassium miscalc. But still, that's a lot of potassium on top of a healthy diet. 800mg 2x/day would probably keep me in the loo (as I believe the Aussies say) for a couple hours after each dose, at least. :lol:

    Didn't I also read in the other thread that you're up to 28mg folate? So that *would* give you the crown. ;)

    That is indeed a wise thing that Freddd said about healing and rehab. I had read that before but had forgotten what he said about the length of time before actual rehab. Thanks for the timely reminder. I have been getting a bit cocky again because I feel pretty good and was maybe beginning to think I could push myself a little harder. Now I think I'll just stay steady for another couple of months and then increase only gently. Better to go slow than crash and have to stop completely for a while, thereby losing current gains.

    Sorry about your walk. Let us know how it goes when you actually get to take it.
  5. Laurel6123

    Laurel6123

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    @place -apples have high salicylate as well...forgive me, I don't know you history, but could salicylate sensitivity be relevant to you?
    salicylatesensitivity.com has good info...it can affect sinuses and cause a bunch of different stuff, I pursued that avenue when I was trying to hunt up an answer beyond "old age" (I was 29 at the time):meh:
    place likes this.
  6. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Here's my exercise report. For some months I've been using a rebounder for short High Intensity Training. I like it because it's so quick. 30 seconds running on rebounder as fast as I can; recovery, then 15 sec.; recovery, and another 30 sec. That's it:) Prior to this I'd worked up to 9 minutes jumping.

    Today I returned to a walk which is about 3/4 mile round trip. It undulates up and down. At the midway point is a hill, a sand dune. I've only managed this once or twice in the last years. My hope was that having just come through an intensive period of detox and having high levels of B12/folate, I'd get to the dune and body would say,"Yay! Keep on going." Not so, I turned back. But my walking was at a good, steady pace. When I came home I lay down, and drifted to sleep. This luxury is new for me in the past couple months, after years of tired-but-wired.

    My experience reinforces Fred's message: increased sense of well-being does not equate with increased capacity for activity. and @whodathunkit 's explanation of saturation makes me more willing to push on with increased doses. Once the need for more seemed to shift from every other day to up to a week, I kept trying to tell my body 'we're finished with this now, we've detoxxed, let's just get over it.':grumpy: But that's not the way it is. It is how it is, and I'm fortunate enough to be able to pay for the life-support system of supps that keep me in the land of the living instead of the hellish place I lived for a decade.:balanced:
    Laurel6123 likes this.
  7. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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  8. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @zzz0r: I'm currently not. But it did do me some good when I took it for a short while. Supposed to help uptake of B12 if you're deficient in it.

    I took a small dose (5mg/day) for a few weeks. Did okay. Then I started getting a little depressed on it. I took this to mean maybe it was starting to act negatively on my thyroid and that I didn't need it anymore, so I stopped it. I brightened right up again. I'll probably take 5mg once per month or so, just for GP.

    I think ahmo is taking it but will let her chime in.
  9. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @zzz0r Yes, I'm taking lithium. I started before I read about the B12 relationship, to help w/ neurotransmitters. I'm taking 5mg AM/PM. When I was detoxxing, it was 10mg TID. All my supp needs were high during the process.

    I've decided to stop waiting for low folate symptoms, to just increase my AM dose by .25mg for the next while. The saturation model increases my understanding. And there is one thing I was able to glean from my look at the layperson's version I posted yesterday (which is pretty strange in it's language, making it as inaccessible as the scientific language she's trying to bypass.). That is,
    Methyl groups are instrumental in the front-line production of new RNA and DNA.This makes me hopeful that at some point enough folate will repair things enough for me to be able to eliminate some of the other supports I now need.

    Also of interest in that doc is this list:
    @whodathunkit, I would have thought 'loo' originated in your part of the world...;)..oh, I just saw your response elsewhere mentioning Wholefoods. I thought you were a Brit.
  10. kyzcreig

    kyzcreig

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    It seems like there's some art to finding the correct dosage. Is it a matter of increasing dosage gradually until symptoms are experienced - then plateauing - or should you try to up the dose again some time (how much?) later. Should the ratio of methylfolate to B12 remain consistent throughout? What about the other B vitamins, should those be increased proportionally too?
  11. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I began by increasing when symptoms of deficiency appeared, about every day or 2. As I've just posted, I'm now going to do it differently, plan to increase by .25mg daily for a time. I don't know whether that will be for a week or a month or what? I'm always talking to my body via self-testing, and watching symptoms. I've been increasing B12 alongside, not w/ every folate increase. Again, by self-testing.

    But also, I get histamine type symptoms when I need B12. I especially tend to get these, tho not always, when I've just increased folate dosage. Can be weepy eyes, wheezy, itchy, a variety of symptoms. If I take a B12 immediately these symptoms clear. I may or may not need to add it to my running total of B12.

    My AdB12 has stayed much mopre stable. I increased it from 5 to 7.5 to 10 mg. then I started Neuroprotek and immediately was able to reduce to 5mg. My other Bs have remained consistent throughout, approx 12mg B comp AM/midday. Self-testing for all these things. cheers, ahmo
  12. Laurel6123

    Laurel6123

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    I have found that my restless legs come back with a vengeance if I needed more folate relative to B12. Before I increase though, I'm experimenting with 5x2 instead 10x1.

    B12- I take 10 mg Adb12 sublingual, and add mb12 10mgs, and more throughout the day if I need it. It's all very subjective and some days I need more than others, and some days I feel like hell and then it dawns on me in the evening that I should have taken more mb12.



    Who was it that said two steps forward and one step back isn't losing ground, it's a cha-cha?
  13. kyzcreig

    kyzcreig

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    Neophyte questions:

    Once a happy dosage is found, is it maintained indefinitely? Presumeably symptoms should diminish after some time, if not can you assume you've done something wrong e.g. used too low a dosage? Caledonia's guide mentions a honeymoon period of 6-8 weeks. How long should you expect to wait before seeing improvement, years, months, weeks?
  14. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @kyzcreig read @whodathunkit's comments above re saturation and her experiences. I most certainly hope to lower doses in the future. I've been increasing my doses since Dec, as documented above. Since then feeling better and better. How long is a piece of string? :rolleyes:
  15. kyzcreig

    kyzcreig

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    Thanks @ahmo :)

    @whodathunkit what's your dosage for other B vitamins? Are you taking them in varying amounts or just taking additional B complex
  16. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @kyzcreig: I'm taking all active B vitamins separately, not in a complex. I could not find a complex that didn't have niacin, and niacin does not agree with me for some reason. Even the active form of niacin, NADH (that doesn't need any processing in the body to convert to active form) doesn't really seem to agree with me. Someone postulated maybe I have a problem with ammonia, but I haven't really had time to look into that yet. Or it could be that I'm getting enough niacin from my diet and don't need the extra. I don't know yet.

    Anyway, I'm taking Thorne R5P (active riboflavin) 35mg. Turns my pee bright yellow.

    Country Life P5P (active B6) 50mg. I've heard you're supposed to take these two in equal doses but this seems to do me fine and I can't find R5P in 50mg.

    Doctor's Best Benfotiamin (active B1), 80mg. Lowest dose I could find. I'm experiementing with taking this every other day now since I don't think I need 80mg/day.

    Thorne Panthenine (active B5), 250mg. Smallest dose I could find. I take it every few days. Next time I buy this it will be powder. It tastes like ass, though, so it definitely needs to go into a capsule. Can't mix it in anything or shoot it down.

    And of course active folate (B9, as metafolin), 30mgs/day. I just upped my dose of that because of some minor paradoxical folate symptoms I seem to be experiencing from adding SAM-e and homemade liposomal vitamin C to my regimen.
  17. kyzcreig

    kyzcreig

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  18. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Just when I decided to increase folate dosage daily for a time, my body has raised the stakes! I increased .25 this AM, but now, about 8 hours later, following my 'regular dose' 1.5 hours ago, I have a significant increase in symptoms on face, nose. So I've just added a second .25 increase, which means .5mg raise today. :eek: I increased by .5mg once, all at once, which gave me significant histamine symptoms, balanced by 1 mg B12. So I'm curious to see how this goes.

    Maybe this indicates some new level of healing/need. Wow. I'm really glad you started this thread zzz0r, it's good to feel supported in this process. Reading whodathunkit's experience helps me approach this as a really interesting experiment/journey (a real trip!) and minimizes the OMG factor. And, my high levels of B12 have shifted me out of anxiety and into cheerfulness. truly!:)
    Laurel6123 likes this.
  19. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    @ahmo, I'm wondering now if an increase in exercise/strenuous activity level will cause an increase in demand for folate, if you're still somewhere in the healing spectrum. Do you remember if Freddd wrote anything about that? I've been increasing my exercise frequency a bit lately and get somewhat of a runny nose when exercising. Runny nose is my second tip-off symptom after bowel issues and I usually don't have one even if I get a cold (get a yin/dry type cold instead).

    You've been increasing exercise a bit lately, too, correct?

    Good to hear about your mood. Mine is fairly good, too. Still a few ups and downs but what is most impressive to me is my increasing tolerance to normal, daily, minor stresses. I now shrug off daily annoyances (for example, encounters with sociopathic drivers) that even as little as a year ago would have left me shaking for minutes afterwards, as well as mentally fretting over the incident for several hours. Now I'm like "meh". I might flip the middle finger and that's the end of it. :devil::D It's gone. What relief!
    Last edited: May 5, 2014
  20. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    As there are not many people that have "what it takes" to push through folate paradoxical deffeciency, this thread is very usefull for people that are actually trying this to exchange experiences. I know as Freddd told me that there are more people that are using increased methylfolate dosages so I am still expecting more people to share their experience in this thread.

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