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high D-lactate on urine test

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by lizw118, Mar 14, 2010.

  1. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hello everyone,
    I am new here! I have never had an official CFS diagnosis but I have adrenal fatigue, hashimotos thyroiditis, POTs symptoms, etc, all after having a virus years ago, so I suppose it is all pretty closely related. Many of my symptoms involve fatigue and various forms of inflammation.
    I just had an ion profile test done (urine). One of the things that came up was high markers for gut dysbiosis with very high D-lactate levels. I have been doing as much research on this online as possible, but it doesn't seem like there is too much info out there. I realize this probably means I have carbohydrate malabsorption, and I should probably do the specific carb diet, at least. What I can't figure out is, can I eat fruit? Every since I was little I have always ingested tons of fruit. I don't feel good without eating it. Is this part of the problem? I can't imagine not being able to eat it.
    Does anyone know any other symptoms associated with D-lactate build up? I actually don't have many gut symptoms, ironically.
    Thanks
    Liz w
  2. SDP

    SDP

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    Hello Liz.. from one newbie to another (my first post too)

    I am only a layman but I discussed these issues with my doc after tests indicated I have gut dysbiosis, and have done a bit of reading online. From what I can gather, D-lactate, dysbiosis and glucose/fructose are intimately connected in that lactate is produced when fructose/glucose come into contact with certain bacteria - eg strep. My advice would be to cut all fruit and sugars from your diet.

    Kenny De Meirleir and Michael Maes have written on this (or related) topics.

    Others with more knowledge may wish to add to/correct any of what I have just said!
  3. gracenote

    gracenote All shall be well . . .

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    A warm welcome to lizw and SDP. Thanks for signing in. Hope you enjoy the forums.
  4. JPV

    JPV Senior Member

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    Here's an excerpt from an interview that Cort did with Dr. Alan Logan regarding H2S and D-Lactate.

    I strongly suggest you read the whole article...

  5. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Thanks so much for all of the replies!
    I am glad I read the part about the fiber, as I thought that was what made fructose more easily palatable to the gut. It looks like I am going to have to cut out all fruits, as the other newbie poster said! This makes me really sad, because fruits have always been my favorite food. I crave them all the time and when I feel physically bad I feel like I need a piece of fruit to feel better, perhaps a hypoglycemic impulse. Ugh. Do I crave them because the bacteria needs them to survive?
    I bought some probiotics with no D-lactate, and took a scoop yesterday. Today I am feeling really tired and I am wondering if the probiotics might not be a good idea, even if they are d-lactate free.
    Does anyone know how long symptoms clear once on a sugar free diet?
    One last question. I often have cloudy urine on days I feel terrible. Sometimes my urine smells sweet, too. I have ruled out UTIs, etc. The cloudiness comes and goes. Could this be related to D-lactate?
    I am currently going down on cortef for adrenal fatigue and that is making me tired, also.
    Thanks so much for all the info and I am enjoying the forum
    Liz W
  6. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Oh, one other thing. I read somewhere that sometimes it is okay to eat fruit that has a high glucose to fructose ratio. Is that true? Or is glucose just as bad, pretty much, as fat as D-lactate producing bacteria...
    Thanks
    Liz
  7. gracenote

    gracenote All shall be well . . .

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    lizw,

    I really don't have any specific answers to your questions, but I do want to encourage you to make changes slowly. I am always tempted to plunge into things because I'm feeling so poorly, but sometimes that just confuses the picture more.

    I've had similar things with my urine in the past, but I never found out why. Let us know if you make any connections.
  8. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Thanks for reminding me to take it slow. I do tend to jump into several treatments at once, and it can be counterproductive.
    The only connection I can find regarding cloudy urine, is that sometimes phosphates in the urine can cause cloudiness. I have also seen cloudy urine in connection with keto-acidosis. I have seen phosphates mentioned in articles with D-lactic acidosis, but I am not sure how they are connected. I need to read some more. I will let you know what I find out.
    Thanks for the warm welcome and information
    Liz
  9. JPV

    JPV Senior Member

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    People are quick to mention "die off" and "herx" symptoms but I find that these terms to be completely overused and misused within the community, to the point where I find such comments virtually meaningless. Especially since they usually seem to come from people that are just making wild guesses.

    Sometimes it's hard to say whether feeling bad after changing supplements/diet is due to ingesting the wrong foods/supplements or whether it is due to your body adjusting.

    Personally, I try to read up as much as possible on any dietary changes I intend to make in order to anticipate such reactions. If there is a negative reaction I just go with it for a few days, if it doesn't seem too dramatic. I do think the body often times needs a period of adjustment for one reason or another.

    I doubt that probiotics would be detrimental to your wellbeing. Taking ones that don't produce D-Lactate are a good choice according to Dr. Logan. I've tried Align for awhile and just recently switched to Culturelle. Both seem to be helpful for me so far.

    As to how long dietary changes will take to give noticeable results, the consensus seems to be that it could take 2-3 months.

    You might also want to read up on digestive enzymes/bitters and Betaine HCL. I'm of the opinion that digestion needs to be worked on first before any other nutritional supplements can even begin to work. If you are not absorbing nutrients properly I think supplements have a hard time doing their job. Also, problems such as "leaky gut" are reported to lead to undigested food entering the blood which supposedly causes extra stress on the immune system which is left with less resources to fight off real pathogens when they appear.

    Do a search for posts by Catseye on this forum. She has a lot of good advice for such matters and seems to have made much improvement with her condition. Her and Freddd, with his Active B12 Protocol, have been the biggest inspiration to me the last few weeks. I've been following both their suggestions and feel like I've seen a bit of improvement over the last few of days.
  10. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hi!
    Thanks for the reply

    I doubt that probiotics would be detrimental to your wellbeing. Taking ones that don't produce D-Lactate are a good choice according to Dr. Logan. I've tried Align for awhile and just recently switched to Culturelle. Both seem to be helpful for me so far.

    I am thinking I will wait til after I do the stool test, then try again. I don't want to mess up the results, just in case, but you could be right that it takes time to adjust.

    As to how long dietary changes will take to give noticeable results, the consensus seems to be that it could take 2-3 months.

    Ugh. I am really having a hard time getting through one day without fruit. I must be really addicted.

    You might also want to read up on digestive enzymes/bitters and Betaine HCL. I'm of the opinion that digestion needs to be worked on first before any other nutritional supplements can even begin to work. If you are not absorbing nutrients properly I think supplements have a hard time doing their job. Also, problems such as "leaky gut" are reported to lead to undigested food entering the blood which supposedly causes extra stress on the immune system which is left with less resources to fight off real pathogens when they appear.

    This actually raises another question for me. Should I take Betaine HCL or not? I mean, I don't want more acid in there if everything is already fermenting, right? I have some and I have been taking it, as well as pancreatin, but I am not sure if it is the right thing to do

    Do a search for posts by Catseye on this forum. She has a lot of good advice for such matters and seems to have made much improvement with her condition. Her and Freddd, with his Active B12 Protocol, have been the biggest inspiration to me the last few weeks. I've been following both their suggestions and feel like I've seen a bit of improvement over the last few of days.[/QUOTE]

    I'l do a search. Much appreciated!
    Nice forum!
    Cheers
    Liz
    :Retro smile:
    Ben Howell likes this.
  11. JPV

    JPV Senior Member

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    Yeah, I noticed that a few days into cutting out sugar and doing probiotics with digestive aids, I had severe sugar cravings. The only problem is I really don't normally have a sweet tooth. I assumed that I was killing something off that needed sugar.

    I'm still trying to learn more about this subject myself so I'm afraid I won't be much help here. I'm still experimenting with what works for me. I feel that I can do better in this department. That's why I recommended doing some research on your own. Others here, like Catseye, seem more knowledgeable about the such matters. There seems to be numerous ways to aid digestion with acids and enzymes, each playing a different role in the process. It seem like an intricate system say the least. Doing tests is probably a good idea. I think I will pursue that avenue myself soon, instead of shooting in the dark.
  12. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    I did check out Catseye's threads-very informative, indeed. She does recommend HCL, going to the point where it burns then cutting back. I am not sure if she has the d-lactic acid problem, though.
    I have been using it and have not noticed ill-effects, so maybe it is okay. I will let you know if I find out anything...
    Cheers
    liz
  13. susan

    susan Senior Member

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    I have high levels of D Lactate. My Dr who had me do the Metametrix tests says to just eat everything except Gluten and no HCL. Instead he put me on Enzymes....ones that contain DPP1V.....this apparently heals the bowel and you can eat gluten and casein if you dont have a really high sensitivity to gluten. It digests these substances. Of course I am on probiotics and he told me the methylation program will help solve the D Lactate problem once the gut dysbiosis is finally arrrested. Only people with short bowels who have had cancer should worry about finding a probiotic without D.lactate he said.
  14. JPV

    JPV Senior Member

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    If I were you I'd change doctors. Sounds like he doesn't know what he's talking about. Most of them don't...

  15. IntuneJune

    IntuneJune Senior Member

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    JPV and others:

    Culturelle has the GG variety, so we are safe with that??

    I just double checked on line since I throw my box out to see if it did contain the GG variety and there are coupons available for Culturelle. I knew that.....but forgot.

    Over the years I have tried different brands but have been using Culturrelle as I felt it was more effective.

    June
  16. JPV

    JPV Senior Member

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    I have use both Culturelle and Align, mostly based on recommendations from an interview that Cort did with Dr. Logan. He mentioned that the GG variety was a good choice...

    http://blog.aboutmecfs.org/?p=633
  17. Glynis Steele

    Glynis Steele Senior Member

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    Hi Liz,

    If you have high d-lactic acid it is important that you should be seen be a GI, as they are the specialist's in this regard. Please feel free to write back for further info, or read my thread on d-lactic on the research page.

    BW

    Glynis
  18. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    I'm with you on this! I crave fruit terribly and if I don't get the fruit then it's on to the junk food. If I eat a typical meal I get nauseated and am able to finish it, but it is not an enjoyable meal at all.

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