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    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

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HIGH BP

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
if there is any way you can avoid taking BP meds, I think it would be a good thing

They do come with side effects the most common seeming to be lathargy. I'm already tired. I don't need to be sapped of what little energy I have. On the other hand I'd rather be tired than dead.

Anyways, taking your BP throughout the day is good thing to do. Increasing your potassium is also probably a good thing. I'm wondering if the niacin is having some effect also.

I've titrated niacin to 2000 mg/day without the stinging sensation all over my body. Before I couldn't even tolerate 100 mg. Whether it's working, it's hard to say. It seems to have improved my sleep. I've increased K from 150 mg/day to 500. I'd like to titrate to 2000-3000. I wonder if I should increase sodium chloride?

And re your cortisol - don't forget about Relora - it can be very helpful in lowering high cortisol, and thus BP, without bad side effects.

I haven't got my Relora yet. I'm looking forward taking it.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
This varies among individuals. What works for one person does not necessarily work for another.

You are so right. One thing I've learned is we are so different as far as our response to certain nutrients, minerals, meds, herbs, etc. I think it's because CFS seems to be a catch phrase encompassing many disorders which lead to fatigue. For some it seems to be methylation problems. For others- viral, bacterial, gut, trama, etc. Maybe they're all interconnected. I don't know.
 

alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Do you have high BP? What has helped you?

I was first diagnosed with labile hypertension more than 30 years ago. I was investigated thoroughly by several cardiologists at different times and the basic conclusion was do nothing, keep an eye on BP.

Most doctors thought I would end up with more permanent hypertension but I haven't.

Over this time the frequency and extent of hypertensive episodes have varied considerably. It first appeared long before my first episode of CFS/ME but I have often wondered about the links to the disease.

I first noticed it around the time I began acquiring the various infections that presumably resulted in my subsequent succumbing to the disease.

I have also observed that in general it was much more frequent when the disease was waxing rather than when it was waning and was largely associated with sympathetic over-activity.

In this current relapse I have experienced notable OI and my BP has been more unstable than ever - plummeting and skyrocketing.

Earlier this year, for the first time, I went through a period when the hypertension did become more permanent and steadily worsened. In the past I had had periods when BP was elevated most of the time but this never lasted long so at first I wasn't worried. Eventually though I became concerned. Not only was the hypertension more or less permanent, it was seriously high.

Blood tests through this time showed that my cortisol was steadily rising also to seriously high levels. I had tried a few things to moderate cortisol and had a bit of success with Withania somnifera, but BP remained stubbornly high. It seemed clear that the cortisol was driving the hypertension but I thought it would take more time to experiment with trying to influence that, so in the meantime, I asked my doctor for an anti-hypertensive. I found that Lisinopril (an ACE inhibitor) was very effective at quite a low dose with no obvious side effects.

Soon after I had a serious crash - my BP plummeted and stayed lowish (very low for me) almost permanently. Based on symptoms (I didn't have blood tests) I believe my cortisol had plummeted also.

I had no idea what this was about but just stopped the Lisinopril and Withania. Eventually things stabilised and the creeping hypertension and cortisol started again though in a much milder fashion.

I was also experimenting (again) with B12/folate at this time as I have discussed with you on another thread. This has consistently been the single most beneficial intervention that I have tried but also one that has been difficult to sustain. This time around mineral and certain B vitamin depletion seemed to be the problem and once I addressed those I began to get a lot of benefit from B12/folate again.

More recently I have experimented further and found that my sensitivity to methylB12 has disappeared and as I always suspected, what I needed was more - A LOT more.

I have been pursuing this over the past couple of weeks and a completely unexpected side effect has been that my BP has completely stabilised. So far, no hypertension, occasionally a little falling BP.

I am amazed. Nothing has ever done this before. I don't know if it will last - only time will tell, but for now it feels as if I am onto something important.

I tell this long story not because you will necessarily have the same responses but to illustrate the complexity of BP and how it can change a lot.

By all means experiment with things that help your overall condition and that maybe influence BP. You might just hit on something that is very effective.

The home BP measurements will be helpful in monitoring progress and understanding how serious the hypertension might be.

If it remains persistent and fairly constant I wouldn't hesitate to try anti-hypertensives; hypertension is serious. The ACE inhibitors, or alternatively the angiotensin receptor antagonists (in Australia the latter are only available on our pharmaceutical benefits scheme if the former are ineffective or not tolerated) are pretty clean drugs - well targeted with few side-effects.

On the drug issue, I find a low dose beta blocker is invaluable in controlling tachycardia.
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
http://www.lifeextension.com/Protocols/Heart-Circulatory/High-Blood-Pressure/Page-01

Supplement suggestions:
http://www.lifeextension.com/Protocols/Heart-Circulatory/High-Blood-Pressure/Page-les

Cardioinhibitory And Cardiotonic Nutrients (Controlling the force at which the heart pumps)
Regulation of Blood Volume (Blood is mostly water, so its volume is dynamic – therefore interventions that help control water storage can modulate blood pressure as well)
  • Potassium: 99 mg daily (or more) when instructed to do so by a health care professional, based on blood test results.
  • Calcium: 1000 – 1200 mg daily
Antioxidants (Reducing oxidative stress helps maintain the ability of blood vessels to dilate, a critical step in blood pressure regulation)
  • Coq10: 100 – 300 mg daily (ubiquinol form of coenzyme Q10)
  • Lycopene: 15 – 30 mg daily
  • Green Coffee: standardized extract: 400 – 1200 mg daily
  • Vitamin C: 1000 – 2000 mg daily
Vasodilators (Compounds that enhance the production or activity of nitric oxide and help the blood vessels dilate, allowing for a reduction in blood pressure)
Other Hypotensive Dietary Factors
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
@alicec Amazing story! I'm glad you found a way to tolerate therapeutic doses of MB12. This gives me great hope and please keep us updated.

It seems methylation may be at the core of many of our disfunctions. I wonder if it addresses our immune system thus calming an overactive sympathetic system? Or maybe it works directly in some way to reduce the production of cortisol?

I've not been paying much attention to my heart rate. Will keep an eye on it.

Side note: I'll take a BP reading 5 minutes apart and find a 10 point difference. What's up with that?

Oh, are you still off of ashwagandha? It seems to have a lot of benifits: reduces cortisol; immunosuppressive effects of stress.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
@CFS_for_19_years Thanks for the list. Has this protocol helped you?

Does resveratrol have quecetin in it? It seems flavonoids work by reducing insulin resistance. I know excess insulin can cause high BP and I've always felt that my high blood sugar is directly related to high BP.

I think, in addition to vasodilators, there are other things to consider: high blood sugar, exercise, methylation.antioxidants.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
I did a little experiment to see how closely related blood sugar and high BP are. Last night I ate a bowl of ice cream. This morning my blood sugar reading was 140! Normally 100-110. My BP was 150/92. Normally 135-140/low 80's. This could be an isolated incident but it did bring about some concern of how long blood sugar levels can stay elavated and its resulting effects on BP.
 

ryan31337

Senior Member
Messages
664
Location
South East, England
Hi @Jimbo39,

Side note: I'll take a BP reading 5 minutes apart and find a 10 point difference. What's up with that?
Cardiac nurses i've spoken to say this is normal, take 3x readings over 10 minutes and you'll usually see it drop progressively 10-20 points. I think to minimise the effect you should be seated & relaxed for a period of time before measuring, also maintain best practice - cuff at heart height, feet on floor etc.

I did a little experiment to see how closely related blood sugar and high BP are. Last night I ate a bowl of ice cream. This morning my blood sugar reading was 140! Normally 100-110. My BP was 150/92. Normally 135-140/low 80's. This could be an isolated incident but it did bring about some concern of how long blood sugar levels can stay elavated and its resulting effects on BP.
This has been my experience too. BP erratic but always hypertensive at home, has since calmed somewhat now I have stabilised blood sugars on a keto diet. Have found low dose beta blockers to be moderately helpful too, I haven't spotted any really extreme BP elevations (200/100 at rest, higher on my feet) since starting those. Suspicion that POTS/MCAS have some relevance in these episodes.

Ryan
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
Here's Mercola's take on managing high BP:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...s-to-lower-your-blood-pressure-naturally.aspx

He emphasizes avoiding foods that boost insulin levels.
Avoid foods that boost insulin levels – Another effective method is to avoid foods that will raise your insulin, such as sugar-type foods and grains. Even whole, organic grains will rapidly break down to sugars, so they too should be avoided.

If you have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, or obesity, you’ll want to avoid foods like:
  • Breads
  • Pasta
  • Rice
  • Cereal
  • Potatoes
While vitamin C may be helpful, you'll also want to avoid eating too many fruits; the types and amounts being adjusted based on your nutritional type.
 
Messages
74
Location
Toronto, ON
@Jimbo39 I have found the 300mg potassium citrate morning and noon helped my OI and carve off about 10-20mm from my blood pressure.
Also, document your home BP readings and bring them with your monitor to your doctor (they often like to see how the readings your machine gives correspond to their readings).
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
He emphasizes avoiding foods that boost insulin levels.

I just read The Obesity Code and it seems insulin is the culprit in so many things: high BP; cortisol stimulation which subsequently raises blood glucose; insulin resistance.

Maybe that's how @alicec was able to address her BP problems by controlling cortisol with B protocol and other cofactors.

Of course avoiding insulin boosting foods are important. I'm already GF and DF (with the exception of cream and butter) but I need to get more aggressive especially where it comes to rice. I really enjoy eggs but read they also boost insulin. Actually everything does. It's a matter of how much: carbs the highest; protein moderately; fats minimally.

My BP has averaged around 137/86 so it's still high. I may need to considered BP meds.
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
have found the 300mg potassium citrate morning and noon helped my OI and carve off about 10-20mm from my blood pressure.
Also, document your home BP readings and bring them with your monitor to your doctor (they often like to see how the readings your machine gives correspond to their readings).

Wow! Glad to hear that. I take potassium glyconate. I wonder if it'll have the same effect? I take about half your dose so I'll try increasing it.

Do you have mast cell hyperactivity?
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
My BP has averaged around 137/86 so it's still high. I may need to considered BP meds
You could probably get away with using the lowest dose possible of atenolol, 12.5 to 25mg per day. That's what I take. It will also slow your heart rate. You may need to check your BP several times a day until you figure out what regimen would work for you.

At higher doses, beta blockers may interfere with sleep, not the best news for people like us.

Whatever BP med you start on, you will probably be able to get by with a low dose. There are different classes of BP meds and your doctor will choose the right class taking into account any other health problems you have.
 
Messages
74
Location
Toronto, ON
Wow! Glad to hear that. I take potassium glyconate. I wonder if it'll have the same effect? I take about half your dose so I'll try increasing it.

Do you have mast cell hyperactivity?
@Jimbo39 I don't have an official diagnosis of mast cell hyperactivity. I've had more than enough 'doctoring' in the last while, so I downplay my allergies and asthma (pre-date CFS for me) and then take EMIQ Quercitin to reduce my regular use of antihistamines. If I had regular anaphylactic reactions then I'd probably push my primary care physician. I suspect my OI/OH is NMH - Neurally Mediated Hypotension.

My CFS specialist recommended increasing salts to help with managing orthostatic hypotension (from sitting to standing, I usually just get the BP drop - more than 20 mm systolic or 10 mm diastolic, but usually don't get tachy standing, unless I'm in PEM), but with family heart issues I didn't want to increase my BP my just adding salt with water, so added more on the potassium side (potassium bicarbonate rather than sodium, and adding the potassium citrate). On a follow-up, she suggested that 2 doses of 300mg would get me a bit more bang. She was right.

Potassium salts tend to be fairly soluble, so it is a matter of what the other bit does. I use magnesium bis-glycinate for half of my magnesium. My functional medicine doctor recommended swapping out to magnesium L-threonate. Glycine (glycinate is the salt of the amino acid glycine) is a co-agonist with glutamate on NMDA receeptors - I'm glutamate sensitive, so I keep with citrate for potassium. Also, as I keep moving back to a keto diet, I like the extra citrate to help with the more acidic cell environment. Also, within 6 months of starting this protocol, my blood tests included sodium and potassium levels.

Ran out of potassium this past week, and back up went my BP, so I'll continue it for a while. Also, gaining weight, did no favors fro my BP, so moving back to keto.

I am not a medical professional though, and the advice was given for my particular situation, but hopefully it is food for thought.
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
I think beta blockers, especially atenolol, one of the older ones, is no longer first-line treatment for hypertension.

Beta Blockers invaluable in preventing heart attacks, cause more harm than good in treating high blood pressure

Other choices include ARBs (Angiotensin Receptor Blockers), angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors, CCBs, (Calcium Channel Blockers), renin inhibitors and diuretics among others. A discussion of the benefits and drawbacks would be more complete here:
http://www.rxlist.com/high_blood_pressure_hypertension_medications/drugs-condition.htm
and here:
http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Condi...dications_UCM_303247_Article.jsp#.WGXlfn3gnps

"First-line" depends on who is doing the prescribing and for whom the prescription is intended, meaning people with certain other conditions such as chronic kidney disease (CKD) or diabetes might be offered an ARB first off. Algorithms include:

http://www.empr.com/clinical-charts/hypertension-treatment-algorithm/article/123845/
COMPELLING INDICATIONS FOR INDIVIDUAL DRUG CLASSES (see link for much more detailed info)
Compelling indication Initial therapy options
Heart failure
thiazide diuretic, beta blocker, ACEI, ARB, aldosterone antagonist

Post myocardial infarction
beta blocker, ACEI, aldosterone antagonist

High CVD risk
thiazide diuretic, beta blocker, ACEI, calcium channel blocker

Diabetes
thiazide diuretic, beta blocker, ACEI, ARB, calcium channel blocker

Chronic kidney disease
ACEI, ARB

Recurrent stroke prevention
thiazide diuretic, ACEI

For a full report with an outstanding algorithm on page 516, download the PDF here:
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1791497
2014 Evidence-Based Guideline for the Management of High Blood Pressure in Adults

In addition, keep in mind that inadequate intake of calcium, magnesium and potassium can contribute to high BP and are another good "first-line" way to reduce the need for BP medication. See http://www.drweil.com/health-wellness/body-mind-spirit/heart/high-blood-pressure-hypertension
 

ryan31337

Senior Member
Messages
664
Location
South East, England
My BP has averaged around 137/86 so it's still high. I may need to considered BP meds.
Hi @Jimbo39,

I'd be interested to hear how you get on with your home monitoring, specifically how you feel if you have periods of 'healthy' blood pressure. My normal is similar to you (135/80) but on occasion when it drops to healthy levels (110/60) I feel terrible with very noticeable orthostatic hypotension - general fogginess & immediately dizzy upon standing etc. So perhaps not a particularly helpful target if we have something going on that means we need a higher pressure to begin with...

Do you have suspicion of mast cell activation?
 

Jimbo39

Senior Member
Messages
405
Location
San Deigo, CA
Glycine (glycinate is the salt of the amino acid glycine) is a co-agonist with glutamate on NMDA receeptors - I'm glutamate sensitive, so I keep with citrate for potassium

I'm glutamate sensitive too. I use potassium glyconate. Is glyconate a precursor to glycine?

Ran out of potassium this past week, and back up went my BP, so I'll continue it for a while. Also, gaining weight, did no favors fro my BP, so moving back to keto.

Dr Moore's book: "The High Blood Pressure Solution" says potassium defiency is the number one factor in high BP.