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Here's my problem with methylation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Misfit Toy, Jun 26, 2015.

  1. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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    I started taking Metagenics Intrinsi B12 Folate at the suggestion of my chiro for energy.

    Folate 800 mcg
    Methylbcolamine 500 mcg
    Intrinsic Factor 20 mg

    I took half a pill, so half of the dose above

    It gave me energy, I felt happier, etc. it's been a nice reprieve.

    But sometimes after taking it, I feel revved and I start cursing like a sailor.

    I can't follow the 23 and Me test and I don't even know what it says. I am overwhelmed by it and don't know how to convert it. I don't have the mental energy to figure it out. Too much on plate. A few years ago, I contacted a guy who worked with Yasko and he said I needed Methylcobalamin so I know that is what my 23 and Me test said. He felt I should not eat onions or garlic. He's right...I get so ill from onions. It stays on my breath for days.

    I don't get rid of sulfur, I think.

    I want the energy this new formula provides but I'm upset with the feeling revved. I also wake up with a lot of pain now every AM. Unusually so, even on the magnesium/taurine shots. This could have something to do with the weather. Rain constantly.

    But....in my gut I think it's detox.

    I take potassium, too.

    Ugh. This is why methylation is hard. I'm too brain fogged to figure it out.

    If I stop the 1/2 a pill, I am so tired so I don't want to stop it. If I take it, I am revved.

    Not sure of what to do.

    I read Caledonia's document on starting slow and low.

    Anyway...just writing this out. Want it to work because it's doing something!
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    It's great that you're finding a positive response, now you can begin working out how much you can tolerate. You might try taking 1/4 pill. the problem with your pill is that you can't vary the folate and B12 separately. Some people who have these feelings of being revved up, or, for me, euphoric, find that taking some niacin/ B3 helps dampen down the response. I found, instead, that adding more MB12 calmed me, almost immediately.

    If you are able to, you might purchase Mfolate and MB12 alone. Solgar Mfolate tabs can be split or crushed for smaller dosing. Enzymatic Therapies MB12 comes in 1mg sublingual tablets. Sublingual will decrease the need for the added intrinsic factor in your current formula.
     
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  3. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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    @ahmo -thank you so much for your response. It's been wonderful to have real interest again on this. As in, I'm listening to music and enjoying it.

    I was just going to ask about intrinsic factor, but you just explained it.

    Is 1 mg of MBB12 a lot? I get the impression that it is?
     
  4. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I don't think 1mg is a lot. But you might be very sensitive. The first link in my signature is to a short version of Freddd's Protocol. You might find low dose recommendations there. Also, @caledonia's Start Low, Go Slow links might give you more specific info. Sorry I can't be more specific. But generally, B12 is a lot better tolerated than folate.
     
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  5. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Hi Misfit Toy,

    You're running into several possible roadblocks:

    You're starting with too much too fast, causing mood swings.
    You're taking more folate than B12.
    Your B12 is oral instead of sublingual, therefore it's barely absorbing.
    Therefore you could be running into methyl trapping.
    You're having issues with sulfur which point to CBS/mercury issues.

    It sounds like you might need to experiment a bit to see which one of those issues is manifesting. I agree with Ahmo, that a good place to start might be to get separate supps for B12 and folate. Make sure the B12 is sublingual and that you're taking more B12 than folate. Keep the dose low and see how you feel with that.

    Click on my signature link for the document Roadblocks to Successful Methylation, which gives a lot more info.
     
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  6. TheChosenOne

    TheChosenOne Senior Member

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    You can go to Genetic Genie and upload your 23andme data (you can download your raw data) and post your results here.
    You might be sensitive to methyl donors. Have you ever considered hydroxycobalamin?
     
  7. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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  8. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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  9. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

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    Wow you have so much yellow and red.

    I get too revved up by methylcobalamin too. I use cyanocobalamin now but I heard it has some bad effects, so when I run out, I would probably switch to hydroxycobalamin.

    I don't know if your problem is the same. I get the feeling most of the time, from a small amount of methylcobalamin.
     
  10. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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    I just went into my emails and found a video that I paid Thane Fredrickson. This is what he says:

    My ammonia is way too high. That I should take Yucca. Avoid sulfur foods like eggs. I don't eat many anyway, but my diet is pretty limited to avoid them completely.

    I have a CBS double mutation. Ammonia causes insomnia.

    I have a lot of Suox so I should take molybdenum.

    Avoid glutathione at all costs.

    I should take P-serine (which makes me horribly sick-can't take it.)

    Lithium orotate should be taken.

    That yes, @SickOfSickness -I should take Hydroxy B12 and Adenosyl B12.

    300 mcg of methylfolate, but start at 50 mcg.

    So, B12 does nothing for me alone. It's the folate that I feel does it.

    I had to put on a pain patch because I am in so much pain and I know it's from the supplement I was taking for methylation. It's totally acting up my Sjogrens. That is my main concern. The pain.

    This is very overwhelming...all of it.
     
  11. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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  12. SickOfSickness

    SickOfSickness Senior Member

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    It is. I'm so confused by it, but now I'm convinced the right supplements can help my energy and help mentally. You have a great list there. Just do one thing at a time. Some of them will probably give you improvement. Personally I would look for a hydroxy that is less than $10/mo.
     
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  13. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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    @SickOfSickness -in super low doses..it is worth a try. I am always nervous about buying the wrong supplement or not a good one, but I will not pay that much. I need a good HydroxyB12...any ideas folks?

    I've felt how it helps my head and mind...so, that is something to remember and build on. The folate, in my opinion, is the trick. B12 by itself does zip for me but rev me up. The folate is what kicks in and brings interest, lack of depression, etc.
     
  14. Valentijn

    Valentijn The Diabolic Logic

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    @Misfit Toy - Your MTHFR is looking pretty good, which is used in creating methylfolate. You probably don't need to supplement folate, at least no more than what is in a typical multivitamin (400mcg).

    MTRR A66G +/+ means that methylB12 is recycled at about 30% of the optimal rate. So hydroxoB12 or methylB12 might help with that. Which one works doesn't seem to be consistently based on any known SNP data.

    Forget about CBS - there's a lot of claims about it, all originating with Yasko and none of which are substantiated in any of the research. Additionally, the available research indicates that CBS A360A has no impact at all.

    The Yasko supplements (from her holisticheal site) are also pretty much the most expensive available, and for very low doses. Sometimes the quality is also low, such as the folic acid (versus folate) in the multi.

    I'm not really sure what the basis is for the other claims by Mr Fredrickson, but they seem a bit bizarre. Does he give a reason for not taking glutathione or precursors? Why does he think that you "have a lot of SUOX"? What was his basis for recommending lithium and serine?
     
  15. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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    @Valentijn-he explained it, but it's all Greek to me. He felt that in order for me to tolerate folate, I would need lithium. In a small dose. He based it on the CBS mutation. I don't handle glutathione...that is a fact. It makes me quite sick and onions and garlic also makes me feel spacey. When he told me that...I was not surprised as onions stay on my breath forever and I feel bloated and sick from them.
     
  16. TheChosenOne

    TheChosenOne Senior Member

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    Lithium orotate is what people take to stabilize their mood. This is especially useful for people with COMT mutations (and also AHCY mutations) and/or have a lot of stress. It doesn't harm you to take it and try it, but based on your methylation profile, you probably don't need it. In case you want to adress your COMT+/-, I'd start with GABA and magnesium first. This really helps me calm down and I can tolerate more methyl donors.
    CBS mutations can be a problem if you also have a candida problem, but it's unclear whether it's a problem with regards to methylation. CBS also increases taurine, so you might not need taurine shots.
    How do you know that? Did he do a test for that?
    Correct, especially if you have brain fog.
    Magnesium is good, depending on what kind of magnesium. Magnesium oxide (the cheap one) is bad for the gut and doens't absorb well. I do very well on magnesium citrate.

    There are a lot of yellows in your profile. If you have other genetic weaknesses, there might be a problem somewhere. But it's hard to conclude something based on these results alone.
    A66G is an important one, so you need B12 support. You don't really need methylfolate, but small doses might help you. You have BHMT mutations, so I'd recommend some TMG.

    Can you post next genes?
    MAT1A/2B:
    rs2993763
    rs4934028
    rs1985908
    rs4869089
    FOLR1/2/3:
    rs2071010
    rs651933
    rs7925545
    MTHFS:
    rs6495446
    rs2733103

    The brand I use for hydroxyB12 is the only brand that is available on iHerb which is $18 per 2 months. There is no need to buy expensive brands unless you cannot tolerate cheap ones.
    You say that you are sensitive to garlic and onions. Are you sensitive to other sulfur foods?
     
  17. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Right - looking at your SNPs, B12 is a bigger issue than folate. However, you have sensitive COMT mutations, so you may do better with hydroxy and adenosylcobalamin than methylcobalamin.

    The CBS A360A +/+ even though it's the minor CBS SNP may still cause issues with sulfur, or there may be a functional issue with mercury which affects CBS, not to mention MTHFR and MTR.

    So if you have mercury, it's like having additional SNPs in those areas, even though genetically, you don't have them (hope that makes sense).

    So you can try to get some B12 with hydroxy and adenosyl, and a smaller amount of folate - basically the same as Thane is suggesting.

    If you're still having issues with anxiety, stress, etc. you may need to address sulfur with a CBS protocol before you can proceed more with methylation. This means avoid sulfur foods and taking molybdenum as well as yucca, to bring down sulfur and ammonia. Use the free thiol diet instead of a low sulfur diet - much easier and works just as well. The diet is only temporary for a few months. Then continue to take molybdenum for maintenance.

    Instead of TMG for the BHMTs (secondary pathway) I would suggest sunflower lecithin which will convert slowly to TMG. It's too easy to get overmethylated with straight TMG.

    ps. the lithium is to help get the B12 into the cells, and may also help with any COMT produced mood swings. This is a very low and safe dose, not anywhere close to what is prescribed for bipolar people.

    I have more info on all this in my signature link.
     
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  18. Misfit Toy

    Misfit Toy Senior Member

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    @caledonia -do they sell B12 with hydroxy and Adenosyl as a package deal?

    Yes, he wanted me to start out avoiding sulfur, taking molybdenum, Yucca, etc. And slowly work into B12. The folate...I am not sure where to get 50 mcg of it, as it's sold in high amounts.

    Honestly, I have no idea what TMG even is. What is it?

    Sunflower lecithin would be okay..possibly as long as there is no soy in it.

    The sulfur issue is real and I totally believe him. I have seen how if I eat anything with onions in it, it stays on my breath forever and I feel depressed and lethargic. It's no joke and I have stayed away from onions, which I love, for that reason...sad because onions are so yummy.

    Thank you. I have read a lot of your info on your signature and already checked out the thiol free diet.

    Right now, I will not try anything, as I am too sick. I am in head to toe pain and Niacin yesterday actually made it worse. I became super depressed after a hot flush and pain came on straight away.
     
  19. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Hi Misfit, I hope your pain clears soon.

    I've seen methyl / adenosyl combos, but not a hydroxy / adenosyl combo.

    For the folate, you may need to subdivide a larger amount into a smaller amount. I have info on how to do that in the document Start Low and Go Slow.

    Another option is to take Yasko's (Holistic Health) All In One multi to start off with. It has low amounts of folate + all the co-factors that you would need. You would want to pair that with your favorite sublingual B12.

    TMG = tri methyl glycine. It supports the BHMT pathway, also called the secondary methylation pathway.

    Lecithin is usually made of soy. Sunflower lecithin is made of sunflower, therefore, it would not contain soy.

    I feel your pain on needing to avoid yummy onions. The good news is, once you get that pathway working, you'll be able to eat them again :)
     
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