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Help with methylation panel results?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by vitamink, Mar 16, 2012.

  1. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    hi vitamink

    I second what adreno said about getting off the adrenal rebuilder. They made me feel worse too when I tried any supps for the adrenals in the past..and that included a round of Cortef many years ago that my doc at the time thought I needed. I know Dr. Cheney's views aren't totally supported here, but he does say that adrenal supps are one of the worst things to take. Maybe if you try getting off the adrenal rebuilder, some of your symptoms will subside. Here is a summary of one of his talks.....

    http://www.prohealth.com/fibromyalgia/blog/boardDetail.cfm?id=1346629
  2. vitamink

    vitamink

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    hey rand,

    thanks, maybe i will stop taking it after all. can i just ask, how did the adrenal stuff make you feel? and were the effects immediate?

    my latest saliva cortisol test was actually pretty normal (except for elevated cortisol at night). although a doctor i recently saw suspects that i might have real adrenal insufficiency. :-/

    anyway, thanks again,
    k
  3. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Karina.

    As you requested, I have studied your Organix profile results from a urine sample collected on May 29, 2012.

    Looking first at the bacterial markers, the elevated benzoate, phenylacetate and D-lactate indicate that you have intestinal bacterial dysbiosis. This is in agreement with the results of your microbial ecology profile from a stool sample collected on January 8, 2012. This is likely interfering with your body’s ability to obtain nutrients.

    Looking next at the citric acid cycle metabolites in the mitochondria, most are high or high-normal. This indicates that there is a bottleneck in your energy metabolism beyond the citric acid cycle. It could be due to a deficiency of vitamin B2 and/or B3, since they are involved in transferring energetic electrons from the citric acid cycle to the electron transfer chain. It could also be due to a deficiency of coenzyme Q-10, which transfers electrons along this chain. The high-normal hydroxymethylglutarate suggests that coenzyme Q-10 is low. Beyond these, there could be problems with the cytochromes in this chain, such as could be caused by deficiencies of iron or copper, or there could be toxins blocking these enzymes.

    Because the mitochondria are dysfunctional, your carbohydrate metabolism has shifted to anaerobic glycolysis, as indicated by the high L-lactate, with pyruvate below the detection limit. This is an inefficient way to make ATP, but it is keeping you alive.

    Fatty acids are being mobilized, but they are not passing through the normal beta oxidation process in the mitochondria. The evidence for this is that beta hydroxybutyrate is below the detection limit. This is probably due to deficiencies of carnitine and vitamin B2. The fatty acids are being diverted to omega oxidation, as evidenced by the high adipate and ethylmalonate.

    Fumarate is below the detection limit. Since succinate is high, this indicates a block between the two, which could be due to low vitamin B2 or low iron. This also suggests that the urea cycle is running slowly. There are several possible causes for that, But the B-complex vitamin markers as well as the last three neurotransmitter markers indicate that there is a deficiency of either B2 or B6 or both, and that interferes with amino acids metabolism, which could account for the slow urea cycle. This is in agreement with the results of your plasma amino acids panel from a blood sample collected on March 22, 2012. That panel showed your essential amino acids levels being generally high, indicating that they were not being burned for fuel at as high a rate as normal.

    Considering the three possible fuels (carbs, fats and amino acids from protein), it looks as though your body is running primarily on anaerobic glycolysis of carbs.

    The high methylmalonate indicates that there is a functional B12 deficiency. This is consistent with glutathione depletion and a partial block in methionine synthase in the methylation cycle, as was shown on your methylation pathways panel. Formiminoglutamate is low-normal, but this marker is probably being masked by B-complex vitamin deficiencies, because it is contradictory to the low tetrahydrofolate level on your methylation pathways panel, and that is a direct measurement of the "hub" of the folate metabolism.

    The low-normal glucarate indicates that your Phase I detox and Phase II glucuronidation are not working very fast. This could mean that you don’t have high levels of toxins, and that would be a good thing!

    Alpha-hydroxybutyrate is below the detection limit. This suggests low flow through the transsulfuration pathway, but this marker could be masked by a vitamin B3 deficiency, which was suggested above. Pyroglutamate is normal, which is puzzling to me, because I would have expected it to be high or low, reflecting glutathione depletion, as found on your methylation pathways panel, where glutathione was measured directly. Perhaps this is a result of polymorphisms in your glutathione peroxidases or glutathione transferases, as I indicated earlier was suggested by your contradictory Spectracell results. Sulfate is high-normal, indicating a high rate of excretion of sulfur metabolites. These results are somewhat confusing, but they do suggest that the sulfur metabolism is off-normal.

    The observation that both L-lactate and D-lactate are elevated suggests that you may have metabolic acidosis, i.e. too much acid in the blood, producing a low blood pH. It would be a good idea to have that checked by your physician, because acidosis can cause problems with the heart, the brain, the breathing, and the digestive system.

    Putting together the results of the various lab tests that you have had, I would say that you do have intestinal bacterial dysbiosis; and I think this should receive priority in treatment. I understand that you are seeing Dr. Galland, so I assume that is under way.

    You also have some nutritional deficiencies, particularly in the B-complex vitamins. You may be able to get injections of B-complex vitamins from your physician. Taking B-complex orally may not work well until the intestinal dysbiosis is corrected.

    I don’t know whether you have deficiencies in essential minerals at this point or not. It would require additional testing to determine this, or you could just take a good, high-potency multimineral after the dysbiosis is corrected.

    You do have glutathione depletion, a functional B12 deficiency, a partial block in your methylation cycle, and folates depletion. After correcting the gut problems and the nutritional deficiencies, a methylation-type protocol will likely be needed to correct this. I understand that you have already been on a methylation protocol for some months. I suspect that the B-complex vitamin deficiencies and perhaps some mineral deficiencies are limiting your progress on this protocol.

    In your early post, you mentioned having positive antibody tests for several pathogens. These may require specific treatment if the immune system is not able to defeat them after the above issues have been resolved.

    I hope this is helpful. I suppose this goes without saying, but be sure to work with your physician on treatment.

    Best regards,

    Rich
    vitamink likes this.
  4. vitamink

    vitamink

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    dear rich,

    this is amazing. thank you so much. i am indeed seeing dr. galland- i'll bring him your analysis in my next appointment. we haven't done anything to address the intestinal dysbiosis, actually- hopefully that will be the next step.

    the day i did the organic acids test, i was feeling much worse than usual, and i'm wondering, how likely is it that the test results would vary from day to day? or do these results give a picture of what's happening in general?

    i'm going to reread your response many more times (!), but just a few questions,

    if i have deficiencies in coq10 and carnitine, would you suggest supplementing those directly? or would the methylation protocol bring them up to normal on its own?
    also, what is a good test for mineral status?
    when i did the methylation panel a few weeks ago, i didn't fast beforehand- do you know if that will be a problem?

    thanks again!!
    karina
  5. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    hi vitamink

    I just knew I didn't feel right on it and I wouldn't say it was an immediate reaction but it didn't take me long to know it wasn't right for me. I had more of a low grade constant internal anxiety that I did not have prior to taking it, plus I had more OI issues when taking it.
  6. vitamink

    vitamink

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    oh ok. good thing you figured out that it was causing problems. at the moment i'm taking over 10 different supplements so it's difficult to determine the effects of each :-/

    i wonder, how are you/others dealing with adrenal issues, then?
  7. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I wouldn't focus too much on "adrenal issues". Normalize your biochemistry as much as possible, and the HPA will follow. The changes in HPA function are likely adaptive. You said yourself that you have the same symptoms as before you started the glandular, even though your cortisol levels have come up. That should tell you that cortisol isn't the most pressing issue here. At least this is my opinion, I know others will disagree with me.
  8. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    If that's the case, in my opinion you need to do an ACTH challenge to determine if the problem is indeed with your adrenal glands.
  9. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    I am with adreno on this one. The ACTH challenge should put to rest any doubts regarding adrenal issues.
  10. vitamink

    vitamink

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    thanks guys. i agree. the acth test is a good idea!
  11. Hoops

    Hoops

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    Hey Nanonug
    I notice the Thorne Basic Nutrients III contains 500 mcg folinic acid so I'm wondering why you use it if you have MTHFR mutation ?
  12. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    I am heterozygous for just one of the mutations which means it's not too bad. In any case, people need some folinic acid. In my case, the amount of folinic acid is peanuts compared to the additional 5mg of methylfolate I take.
  13. Hoops

    Hoops

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    Nano could you elaborate on what that set of symptoms was ?
  14. nanonug

    nanonug Senior Member

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    roxie60 likes this.
  15. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, karina.

    I think the urine organic acids test will give a pretty good picture, even though you were having a bad day that day.

    Supplementing Co Q10 and carnitine can help somewhat. If the methyation cycle block is corrected, the body will eventually be able to make enough itself, but initially it can help to supplement them. Dr. Sarah Myhill recommends a package of mitochondrial supplements, including these two, some B vitamins, magnesium and D-ribose, and these are able to help the mitochondria in quite a few people.

    I like the blood tests for minerals, particularly the Doctor's Data red blood cell elements test, available here:

    https://www.directlabs.com/OrderTests/tabid/55/language/en-US/Default.aspx

    It's not necessary to fast before running the methylation pathways panel. The sensitive parameters are measured in the red blood cells, and they aren't sensitive to whether one is fasting at the time.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  16. vitamink

    vitamink

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    Thank you, Rich!
  17. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    I'm thinking of starting the SMP so I watched your video and read a bunch of posts. But I'm really really sick from an IV my doctor gave me 10 days ago. It contained 10mg methyB12, 2 grams mag chloride, 1 gram calcium chloride, B complex, 3 grams non-corn Vit C, as well as the 2500 mg of glutathione I went there for (the rest was a surprise). My symptoms are extreme fatigue and slow thinking. Do you think the B12 mobilized a bunch of mercury? What else could be wrong, and what can I do?

    Mimi
  18. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    HI, Mimi.

    I'm not sure why you have had that reaction. Perhaps this IV caused some toxins to be mobilized and then to continue to circulate in the blood and be deposited at new sites.

    Some people have found that activated charcoal helps to bind toxins and take them out in the stools. I've heard of dosages of about 3 grams per day, and if it causes constipation, according to Dr. Yasko, it can be slurried with Milk of Magnesia to prevent that.

    Some people have also found that lemon juice will help to excrete some toxins in the urine. It's important to use a drinking straw and to flush the teeth with water afterward, to prevent citric acid from chelating calcium and damaging the enamel on the teeth.

    I recommend working with your physician when doing these treatments. I am a researcher, not a licensed physician, and this should not be considered as medical advice.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  19. Mimi

    Mimi Senior Member

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    Thank you, Rich. I will run it by her.

    Mimi
  20. vitamink

    vitamink

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    Hi guys- an update! I just received results from my second methylation panel, and there has been quite a bit of improvement!

    My first test was done on 2/16/12, but I only began the methylation protocol in late March. The second test was done on 5/30/12, so only two months into treatment.

    Here are the results of my first test from 2/16:

    Glutathione (oxidised): 0.54 (range 0.16-0.50)
    Glutathione (reduced): 2.6 (range 3.8-5.5)

    S-Adenosymethionine (RBC): 240 (range 221-256)
    S-Adenosylhomocysteine (RBC) 53.8 (range 28.0-49.0)
    5-CH3-THF: 15.3 (range 8.4-72.6)
    10-Formyl-THF: 3.9 (range 1.5-8.2)
    5-Formyl-THF: 4.70 (range 1.20-11.70)
    THF: 0.40 (range 0.60-6.80)
    Folic Acid: 14.8 (range 8.9-24.6)
    Folinic Acid (WB): 12.7 (range 9.0-35.5)
    Folic Acid (RBC): 382 (range 400-1500)

    Adenosine: 24.8 (range 16.8-21.4)

    And here are the results of the second test from 5/30:

    Glutathione (oxidised): 0.50 (range 0.16-0.50)
    Glutathione (reduced): 3.5 (range 3.8-5.5)

    S-Adenosymethionine (RBC): 249 (range 221-256)
    S-Adenosylhomocysteine (RBC) 50.5 (range 28.0-49.0)
    5-CH3-THF: 19.2 (range 8.4-72.6)
    10-Formyl-THF: 3.6 (range 1.5-8.2)
    5-Formyl-THF: 3.90 (range 1.20-11.70)
    THF: 0.59 (range 0.60-6.80)
    Folic Acid: 18.2 (range 8.9-24.6)
    Folinic Acid (WB): 16.8 (range 9.0-35.5)
    Folic Acid (RBC): 409 (range 400-1500)

    Adenosine: 21.9 (range 16.8-21.4)

    Reduced glutathione is still low, but it rose from 2.6 to 3.5, oxidized glutathione has decreased into the normal range, SAH has decreased, THF has increased, RBC folic acid has increased into the normal range, and adenosine has decreased.

    Just wanted to share what looks like good news. I guess I'll be continuing with the protocol, along with dealing with some nutrient deficiencies, gut issues and (possible) Lyme disease.

    (For future reference,) my current meds and supplements are:

    Doxycycline 200mg
    Plaquenil 400mg
    Florastor
    Grapefruit Seed Extract 1500mg

    Methylcobalamin injection 5mg every 3 days
    B-complex injections once a week
    Folinic acid 800mcg
    L-methylfolate 400mcg
    B-complex (has folic acid 400mcg (yeah yeah..))
    Phosphatidylserine

    Rhodiola rosea 300mg
    Magnesium oil

    Cheers!
    Karina
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