Help Needed - What's The Difference Between Ordinary, Sublimed, and Re-Sublimed Iodine Crystals?

[alicec]

I believe one reason iodine supplements and tinctures are formulated with both iodine (I2) and potassium iodide (KI) is because iodine is normally only slightly soluble in water, but the addition of KI to the water allows much more iodine to dissolve.

The iodine reacts with iodide to form the triiodide ion. So almost all of the iodine in Lugols is in the form of iodide or triiodide. There is very little elemental iodine.

Hip said that most of Lugol's hits the bloodstream as iodIDE, because most of the iodine is converted in the stomach to iodide.

My own experience doesn't necessarily bear this out, because my skin responded a lot more dramatically when I deliberately added asc acid to half of my day's dose, intentionally creating iodIDE, which means it got a greater amount of iodide from, well, giving it 100% iodide as half my daily dose, instead of the iodine/iodide mix in Lugol's.

Iodine forms in food/supplements are indeed converted into iodide and taken up in that form into cells - ie the known transporters carry iodide, not other forms.

It is possible there might be some other transport mechanisms and a couple of in vitro studies do suggest this, but at this stage, if they do exist, we don't know what they are.

An alternative explanation for your experience is that by converting all of your Lugols dose into iodide you were simply ingesting a higher dose, which your skin noticed. In other words, your gut is not converting the non-iodide part of Lugols into iodide efficiently and so you are getting a lower dose than you think.

The breasts need iodine. There are other tissues that also prefer iodine.

As I said in this post, the evidence for this is extremely thin.

I'm still researching which tissues prefer which form, but will be posting it in my iodine thread, not here.

I would be very interested to read some serious studies to support this notion, not just the numerous internet sites which dogmatically repeat the same information over and over again with no shred of supporting evidence. I'll look forward to your post.

 

[Hip]

The iodine reacts with iodide to form the triiodide ion. So almost all of the iodine in Lugols is in the form of iodide or triiodide. There is very little elemental iodine.

I appreciate that, but I think this is a reversible reaction, so the triiodide ion, once absorbed by the body, is able to revert back to I2. Thus it is a source of I2.

 

[alicec]

but I think this is a reversible reaction, so the triiodide ion, once absorbed by the body, is able to revert back to I2. Thus it is a source of I2.

I don't think the triiodide ion is absorbed as such, iodine transporters are specific for iodide. Iodine is generated from iodide in the cell by specific enzymes.

 

[Hip]

I don't think the triiodide ion is absorbed as such, iodine transporters are specific for iodide. Iodine is generated from iodide in the cell by specific enzymes.

I did not even know that iodine transporters existed in the gut.

Are you saying, though, that you think the iodine transporters may not be able to absorb iodine I2 from the gut, only iodide I- ? The study I mentioned earlier found that oral administration of iodine versus iodide to rats led to different tissue distributions of iodine, which suggests that iodine I2 is orally absorbed, and ends up in different tissue areas compared to iodide I-.

 

[alicec]

Are you saying, though, that you think the iodine transporters may not be able to absorb iodine I2 from the gut, only iodide I-

Yes. The only known mechanism of uptake of iodine from the gut is the sodium iodide symporter (NIS) which is present on enterocytes throughout the small intestine. This is the same transporter which concentrates iodide in the thyroid and in other tissues.

It is specific for iodide and seems to account for virtually all iodine uptake. Other ingested forms of iodine are simply converted to iodide in the gut before uptake.

There are a few scattered studies such as the one you quoted which suggest there might be some alternative pathways but the mechanism is a mystery. I wasn't willing to pay 35 euro to read the full paper but I have looked at some other studies quoted by those arguing for a specific uptake and special role for iodine as opposed to iodide. They are few and far between, often of dubious quality (such as presentation to an ancient meeting) and are largely observational. Certainly there is no firm evidence for some extravagant claims.

There might be something to the idea but we have no idea how and to what extent it happens.

There is another transporter, pendrin (PEN), which plays a role in the thyroid and the ear (probably other places too) but it too is iodide specific.

 

[pamojja]

My own experience doesn't necessarily bear this out, because my skin responded a lot more dramatically when I deliberately added asc acid to half of my day's dose, intentionally creating iodIDE, which means it got a greater amount of iodide from, well, giving it 100% iodide as half my daily dose, instead if the iodine/iodide mix in Lugol's.

Interesting hypothesis. Mine would rather suspect ascorbic acid itself, with all its essential functions with collagen and such. Though without knowing how much vitamin C sufficiency you had, and how much of it added, difficult to tell.

 

[Jigsaw]

Interesting hypothesis. Mine would rather suspect ascorbic acid itself, with all its essential functions with collagen and such. Though without knowing how much vitamin C sufficiency you had, and how much of it added, difficult to tell.

No, I can't agree with that

I have always taken asc acid in quantity, often to BIP, and it's never ever had this impact on my skin in the 25 plus years I've been doing that. I used less than c.100mg to oxidise the Lugol's, so if 10g plus hasn't ever had that effect, why would 100mg?

Above that, I am currently taking 1500mg x2/d to support NIS function, but have been doing that with unadulterated Lugol's as well as the few days with 100% iodide.

It is, therefore, the effect of the extra iodide.

 

[PatJ]

I have always taken asc acid in quantity, often to BIP, and it's never ever had this impact on my skin in the 25 plus years I've been doing that

One of the first positive effects that iodine had for me was smoother, softer skin over my entire body. I've read comments from other people that noticed the same effect. It helped to resolve skin cracking and bleeding on my fingers where skin creams had very little effect for many years.

 

[Jigsaw]

I don't think the triiodide ion is absorbed as such, iodine transporters are specific for iodide. Iodine is generated from iodide in the cell by specific enzymes.

Which enzymes? The only iodine-related enzymes I have any knowledge of are the deiodinases involved in T4»T3 conversion. I'd like to understand the others.

 

[Jigsaw]

The iodine reacts with iodide to form the triiodide ion. So almost all of the iodine in Lugols is in the form of iodide or triiodide. There is very little elemental iodine.



Iodine forms in food/supplements are indeed converted into iodide and taken up in that form into cells - ie the known transporters carry iodide, not other forms.

It is possible there might be some other transport mechanisms and a couple of in vitro studies do suggest this, but at this stage, if they do exist, we don't know what they are.

An alternative explanation for your experience is that by converting all of your Lugols dose into iodide you were simply ingesting a higher dose, which your skin noticed. In other words, your gut is not converting the non-iodide part of Lugols into iodide efficiently and so you are getting a lower dose than you think.



As I said in this post, the evidence for this is extremely thin.



I would be very interested to read some serious studies to support this notion, not just the numerous internet sites which dogmatically repeat the same information over and over again with no shred of supporting evidence. I'll look forward to your post.

Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, 2000. Kilbane et al.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-lookup/doi/10.1210/jcem.85.3.6442

"The relatively low or absent iodine content of breast carcinoma tissues investigated in the present study is supportive of the previously expressed view that iodine (I2) rather than iodide (I−) is required by mammary tissue for normal function (11). These workers demonstrated that molecular I2 has a therapeutic effect in fibrocystic breast disease (18) and that administration of I2alone (19) or in combination with medroxyprogesterone acetate (12) had a suppressive effect on dimethylbenzanthracene-induced rat mammary tumors."

 

[Jigsaw]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8221402

Canadian Journal of Surgery, Ghent, et al, 1993.

"RESULTS:
Study 1: 70% of subjects treated with sodium iodide had clinical improvement in their breast disease, but the rate of side effects was high; 40% of patients treated with protein-bound iodide had clinical improvement. Study 2: 74% of patients in the crossover series had clinical improvement, and objective improvement was noted in 72% of those who received molecular iodine initially. Study 3: in the treatment group 65% had subjective and objective improvement; in the control group there was a subjective placebo effect in 33% and an objective deterioration of 3%.

CONCLUSIONS:
The fibrocystic breast reacts differently to sodium iodide, protein-bound iodide and molecular iodine. Molecular iodine is nonthyrotropic and was the most beneficial."

 

[PatJ]

Study 1: 70% of subjects treated with sodium iodide had clinical improvement in their breast disease, but the rate of side effects was high;

My brain isn't up to reading the study. I'm curious if the side effects were similar to those experienced by people who don't take the iodine cofactor supplements? or similar to standard detox symptoms that some doctors mistakenly think is iodine toxicity?

 

[Jigsaw]

Abraham, Flechas, Hakala, The Original Internist
http://www.optimox.com/pdfs/IOD01.pdf
Several tables summarising effects of different forms of iodine.


Eskin, Ghent, et al 1994
http://iodineresearch.com/files/eskin_ghent_1995_iodine_iodide_rat_thyroid_mammary_gland2.pdf
"..iodine distribution in the blood, stomach, skin, and thyroid glands depended on the chemical form of iodine employed for replacement."
"They [Thrall and Bull, Fundamentals of Applied Toxocology, 1990] also showed that I2 is not reduced to I~ in the blood before it is absorbed systemically from the gastrointestinal tract"
"These abnormal changes are most evidently reduced when elemental I2 is given. I2 is distinctly more effective in diminishing the ductal hyperplasias and perilobular fibrosis in the mammary glands than I~, using the same total iodine dose in both treatments."

 

[Jigsaw]

My brain isn't up to reading the study. I'm curious if the side effects were similar to those experienced by people who don't take the iodine cofactor supplements? or similar to standard detox symptoms that some doctors mistakenly think is iodine toxicity?

They go on to list the side effects as things like disliking the taste of iodine!

Or that may have been a different study. I'm foggy today, too. Struggling to keep my eyes open, and I'm trying (and failing) to watch Holby for about the sixth time today. No concentration :-( Changing my Lugol's to iodide really hasn't helped me. I don't think it's detox, and I take @alicec's point about increasing my dose=skin response, though it doesn't explain the deterioration in other areas that were previously showing improvement on Lugol's as I2 plus KI~.

Have you had any tinnitus from Lugol's, @PatJ ? Mine started when I took 5mg lithium orotate, increased the next time I took it, and hasn't abated since. LO relegated to the "supplements I can't use" cupboard. Didn't introduce LO until I was already at 50mg Lugol's, and hadn't had this issue on that dose, only when I took a 5mg LO cap.

Just wondering if it's being caused by the Lugol's, or if it's solely due to the LO. Never had it before, except on returning to a quiet place after a club night out, or a concert etc, and is exactly the same noise. Medium pitch humming in both ears. Really quite irritating.

 

[PatJ]

Have you had any tinnitus from Lugol's, @PatJ ? Mine started when I took 5mg lithium orotate, increased the next time I took it, and hasn't abated since. LO relegated to the "supplements I can't use" cupboard. Didn't introduce LO until I was already at 50mg Lugol's, and hadn't had this issue on that dose, only when I took a 5mg LO cap.

I've had tinnitus for years but haven't noticed any increase with iodine, if anything there might be a decrease. It's interesting you mention LO and tinnitus. I took some LO last night and my tinnitus is stronger this morning. My tinnitus sometimes varies in character and intensity so I didn't think to connect it with the LO.

 

[Jigsaw]

I've had tinnitus for years but haven't noticed any increase with iodine, if anything there might be a decrease. It's interesting you mention LO and tinnitus. I took some LO last night and my tinnitus is stronger this morning. My tinnitus sometimes varies in character and intensity so I didn't think to connect it with the LO.

-But it's stronger since taking LO?

Maybe you could monitor it again the next time you take LO. What dose are you using of LO?

 

[PatJ]

But it's stronger since taking LO? Maybe you could monitor it again the next time you take LO. What dose are you using of LO?

It's stronger today since taking LO last night. Maybe it's a conincidence. I did take it for many months and didn't notice any obvious difference in my tinnitus but the tinnitus is everpresent and something I tune out most of the time, so maybe changes occured but weren't significant enough for me to notice. I haven't been taking LO very often since I upped my iodine intake recently.

I'll wait a few days and try again to see what happens. I take the usual 5mg/day.

 

[Jigsaw]

Keep me posted

 

[alicec]

Which enzymes? The only iodine-related enzymes I have any knowledge of are the deiodinases involved in T4»T3 conversion. I'd like to understand the others.

The enzyme thyroid peroxidase (TPO) catalyses the oxidation of iodide to iodine which immediately reacts with tyrosine residues in thyroglobulin forming protein bound thyroid hormones which are later released.

The oxidising agent is hydrogen peroxide which is generated by members of the NADPH oxidase family, the dual oxidase enzymes DUOX1 and DUOX 2. Another family member NOX4 seems to play some role also.

Hydrogen peroxide is not the sort of thing you want hanging around in the cell so this reaction is tightly controlled and the two enzymes tightly coupled.

Iodine doesn't hang around either. It is used as it is generated.

Here is a review.

In the breast substitute lactoperoxidase for TPO.

Edit to add.

TPO and LPO use calcium and haem b as cofactors.

DUOX uses calcium and NADPH (hence niacin) and is a flavoprotein (B2 requirement).