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Help Needed - What's The Difference Between Ordinary, Sublimed, and Re-Sublimed Iodine Crystals?

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Jigsaw, May 13, 2017.

  1. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I'm thinking about making my own Lugol's, but once I started sourcing iodine crystals, I found that you can get "iodine crystals", "sublimed iodine crystals", and re-sublimed iodine crystals".

    Having pretty much nil chemistry knowledge, I have an equally nil idea of what the difference between them is, and if one is better for making Lugol's than the other. Or not!

    Iodine crystals are also available as prills, and, again, I have no idea as to the benefits/ disbenefits of prills over crystals :confused:

    So, I thought I'd better ask all the chemistry buffs on here :) Really don't want to screw things up by getting the wrong form if there is a wrong form to use. For all I know, it makes no odds at all, and any of them would be fine for Lugol's. I literally have no clue!

    Have been rootling around online for nearly a week, trying to find an explanation, and I can't even see one on CureZone.

    Also, I've been trying to find a 500ml amber glass bottle with a wide neck, so maybe even a jar, and can't seem to find any online.

    Any guidance gratefully received re: the best form of iodine to use, and potentially sourcing suitable glassware.

    Thanks!
     
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  2. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Sublimation is the transition of a solid to a gaseous state (you'd be familiar with this as the vapour formed from dry ice).

    When substances crystallise, trace quantities of impurities are trapped in the crystals. By allowing the crystals to be transformed into a gas (usually by heating) and recrystalise, ie to sublime, a purer product is obtained.

    If this process is repeated, ie resublimation, an even purer product is obtained.

    For your purposes, iodine crystals would be fine. These would still be >99.5% pure I think. The very highly purified products would be for specialised uses.

    Prills are small spherical pellets. I think the advantage is that they are free of the dust that might be present in flakey crystals.

    You could try laboratory supply companies for the bottles, alternatively suppliers of DIY cosmetics.
     
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  3. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Brilliant, thanks @alicec, that's a really clear explanation :thumbsup:

    I kind of vaguely half-remembered seeing something about evaporation, but hadn't connected subliming /sublimation as producing a more pure product, similar to distilling water.

    Thanks again :)
     
  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    @Jigsaw, if you buy a jar of iodine crystals, you might want to store that jar inside a second larger jar that has a good hermetic seal.

    I bought a jar of iodine crystals some years ago, and placed it in the back of a draw. When I looked at the draw some months later, somehow the iodine gas that can sublimate off from the crystals leached through the plastic of the jar, and this iodine gas stained the much of the inside of my wooden draw a horrible dark brown color (not to mention staining many items that were in the draw) — a stain which I could not remove very well, even with bleach.
     
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  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Note that iodine supplements and tinctures usually consist of not just iodine, but also iodide, in the form of potassium iodide, or sometimes sodium iodide.

    I believe one reason iodine supplements and tinctures are formulated with both iodine (I2) and potassium iodide (KI) is because iodine is normally only slightly soluble in water, but the addition of KI to the water allows much more iodine to dissolve. Ref: 1
     
  6. PatJ

    PatJ far and free I gaze

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    Mixing ascorbic acid into a little water and pouring it onto the stain may help to reduce the color since ascorbic acid changes iodine to colorless iodide.
     
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  7. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Thanks, Hip.

    Yes, I know that :) It's also more desirable for the body to have iodINE and iodIDE both available since different tissues have a preference for one or the other (e.g., thyroid, skin - iodide, breast tissue - iodine). Some will use either, as available, but some can't.

    There is debate as to whether the two are interchangeably converted or not. It seems feasible that iodINE converts to iodIDE, but less likely for iodIDE to convert to iodINE, since iodide is an oxidised form of iodine.

    The other big difference between Lugol's and a standard Tincture of Iodine is that the latter is in a form of alcohol that is toxic if taken internally. I think it's ethanol, but don't quote me.

    For making Lugol's, I'm buying KI, I2, distilled water, various brown glass storage/useage jars/bottles. I'm also going to make a pure SSKI, too. One theory says that we need way more iodide than iodine, and to get that amount of iodide in Lugol's involves more iodine than is useful. Certainly, turning my Lugol's into iodide by adding ascorbic acid powder, and taking that instead of my usual Lugol's iodine & iodide has caused my skin to turn super soft and smooth most dramatically. It feels like someone else's skin! But then skin uses (or at least prefers) iodide, not iodine, so although it had become somewhat softer and smoother on untreated, plain Lugol's, it obviously found it easier to use iodide direct in the oxidised iodine form. I'm trialling taking 50% Lugol's to c.50mg combined iodine and iodide, then another c.50mg in oxidised form by adding ascorbic acid to it - you only need a tiny amount to turn it clear.

    Sorry to hear about your drawer and its contents - Pat's right, your best best is ascorbic acid powder. It oxidises the dark iodine and turns it into colourless iodide. Thanks for the warning. I was going to store whatever didn't get decanted for use in a glass jar with a plastic seal round its glass stopper. It's a very tight fit, but I might use something with a better seal than that, now :)
     
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  8. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Hmm.., are you sure that Iodide is less likely to be converted back into iodine? Because such reconversion in the body seems quite common with other anti-oxidants, like Ubiquinone, or vitamin E.

    Also one has to assume that there is always a bid of ascorbic acid in the blood, otherwise one would die of scurvy.
     
  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Thanks, I think I read that somewhere myself, but I can't remember whether tried ascorbic acid or not. It was several years ago. But I will give it a go next time I have some ascorbic acid in stock.



    That's right, but what I am saying is that you will not be able to get much iodine crystals to dissolve into the water unless you first add potassium iodide, as this facilitates the dissolving of iodine. On its own, iodine dissolves poorly in water.

    The alternative is to use alcohol to dissolve your iodine, which is what I do. I just use some vodka, gin, etc, just any 40% ethanol spirit. That way you make tincture of iodine, as opposed to Lugol's iodine.

    The way I make up my own iodine tincture, 8 drops provide me with my daily dose of 16 mg of iodine (16 mg of total iodine from both I2 and KI). That's a negligible amount of alcohol in 8 drops.



    Ethanol is the standard alcohol found in alcoholic drinks. Eg, vodka is typically 40% ethanol, 60% water.



    I just made up my own iodine tincture to save a bit of money, but I am not sure it is worth all the trouble really, as you can buy 60 x 12.5 mg of iodine tablets for around £12: Swanson Ultra Triple Iodine Complex

    By the way, although chemists talk of "drops" as if they were a standardized measure (and typically people will assume that there are 20 or 25 drops per 1 ml), in fact drop size varies a lot depending on the pipette you use, and the type of liquid itself. A fat pipette head will produce larger drops than a thin narrow one.


    I find iodine very mildly improves energy levels, and I also find it helps reduce the feelings of heavy and fatigued body and limbs that you get in ME/CFS (the "molasses limbs" feeling).
     
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  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    The reaction between ascorbic acid and iodine is given here:

    ascorbic acid + I2 --> 2 I- + dehydroascorbic acid​

    So ascorbic acid turns iodine (I2) into iodide (I-), which defeats the object if you are trying to produce a mixture of both iodine (I2) and iodide (I-).
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  11. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    No, not all sure! Just working on the basis that iodide is a result of oxidation, that's all. Doesn't it become an oxidant if it is subjected to oxidation? I would have thought it easier for the body to oxidise something than un-oxidise it. I don't know of anything you can add to KI to make it turn orange/brown again, which would indicate it had turned back into iodine.

    I have zero knowledge of chemistry laws or rules, but that would seem logical to me.

    Plus, the posters over at CureZone are still taking Lugol's for the iodine content along with the SSKI for the high iodide content, and if they recognised that iodide would/could convert back to iodine, they wouldn't need to do that.

    I think neat asc acid has to come into direct contact with iodine to oxidise it. I don't think small amounts diluted in physiological fluids would have much, if any impact.
     
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  12. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Here is some further info (from an old post) about iodine (I2) into iodide (I-):



    Orally consumed iodine (I2) is mostly converted into iodide (I-) in the stomach; here it says that:
    And here it says:
    So when you supplement with iodine (I2) + potassium iodide, it seems that most of the supplement reaches the blood as iodide (I-).

    Having said that, this paper found that in iodine-deficient rats, administration of iodine (I2) seemed to have effects in different tissue compartments compared to administration of iodide (I-): iodide seemed more effective at targeting the thyroid gland; whereas iodine was more effective at targeting the mammary glands.

    The authors provided a possible explanation for this:
    So in other words, because the thyroid gland has lots of peroxidase, this gland can more easily convert iodide back to iodine, and thus make full use of the iodide in the blood.
     
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  13. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    And also, according to wiki, inToI
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tincture_of_iodine

    Yes, I am fully aware of this! You put KI in water first, dissolve that (dissolves faster if you heat then cool the water to 25 deg C first), then add the I crystals/prills, or you're right, it won't dissolve properly.

    I'm on c.100mg/d atm, so that would last me 7.5 days. I'm still repleting and dealing with FBD and the aftermath of oestrogen breast cancer.

    I think that depends on how sensitive you are to alcohol. I don't drink, because I can't tolerate it. Long-standing condition.

    Plus, how do you know what your vodka etc has been diluted with, water-wise? - The 60% you mention? I don't tolerate tap water, even more long-standing than not tolerating alcohol. I'll be happier sticking to distilled water. It's also a lot cheaper than a bottle of booze! And won't have fluorife in it.

    Luckily, I'm very used to drops as a measurement, because I've been practising aromatherapy for 20-odd years. I have a 1ml measure, so I can check how many drops of which substance make up 1ml. My Lugol's, a watery solution, is 20 drops/ml. The SSKI I'll be making should be 15 drops/1ml, because it's more viscous.

    I'll bear that in mind if I ever want to make my own ToI. I'm making Lugol's (and SSKI). :)
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
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  14. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Good to know :)

    (Actually, that old post on iodine that you did was one that I had read and "liked" when I was first looking into iodosupplementation.)
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  15. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    :confused: That would mean the rats different tissue targeting wouldn't apply to humans?
     
  16. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    :confused: Why would that mean it wouldn't apply to other animals, including humans? :confused:
     
  17. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    And dehydroascorbic acid also has the benefit of being able to cross the BBB, and the bone blood barrier too, unlike ascorbic acid.
     
  18. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    And yes, it defeats the object if you want a mix of the two, which is why the iodine protocol stipulates that you take Vit C at least an hour away from Lugol's.

    Vit C as ascorbic acid at 1500mg twice a day is cited by Brownstein et al as being helpful in restoring function to NIS damaged by bromide. If the symporters aren't working efficiently, uptake of iodine and iodide will be poor.



    But hey, there's a whole iodine thread elsewhere. This was simply me asking about sublimed and resublimed iodine crystals for making Lugol's with. I have another thread about SSKI, too.:)
     
  19. pamojja

    pamojja Senior Member

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    Other animals we don't know, but in humans it seems..
     
  20. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Hip said that most of Lugol's hits the bloodstream as iodIDE, because most of the iodine is converted in the stomach to iodide.

    My own experience doesn't necessarily bear this out, because my skin responded a lot more dramatically when I deliberately added asc acid to half of my day's dose, intentionally creating iodIDE, which means it got a greater amount of iodide from, well, giving it 100% iodide as half my daily dose, instead of the iodine/iodide mix in Lugol's.

    The breasts need iodine. There are other tissues that also prefer iodine. Unless EVERY iodine-preferring tissue can and does convert iodide back to iodine easily, none of those tissues would get iodine delivered to them. If that was the case, FBD wouldn't resolve, nor would oestrogen breast cancer, or uterine cancer, or ovarian cancer (uterus, ovaries need iodINE too.)

    I'm still researching which tissues prefer which form, but will be posting it in my iodine thread, not here.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
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