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Help, my neurotransmitters are very low.

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by amaru7, May 11, 2014.

  1. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I tested for urinary neurotransmitters lately and all came out clearly below range. serotonin, glutamate, gaba, adrenaline, nor adrenaline and dopamine. The Dr. himself had no clue Why and said he had rarely ever seen such a result before. I think this is an important part as to why I am feeling so much like crap.

    I read alot and the only intervention seems to be neurotransmitter precursors like phenylalanine, tyrosine, Tryptophan, theanine and cofactors like b6. The success rate is questionable at best.

    Does anyone have any idea as to why this is,? Can neurological damage lead to such a result and is there any promising treatment for this that I might not have heard of?

    And did anyone also test for neurotransmitter levels?
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
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  2. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I've had them tested several times. But, as the lab report said, it is difficult to know what urinary levels indicate as they don't necessarily correlate with the levels in the body. So the bigger clinical picture needs to be looked at.

    This is what is being excreted but there can be different reasons why we are excreting high or low levels.

    Sushi
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  3. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Sushi is right, it is not definitive in and of itself to the whole picture, however Pyroluria can be a common cause of this because of vitamin b6 deficiency which depletes neurotransmitters, also deficiency in zinc, it also causes methyl trap and excess methionine which can decrease levels further... Look into getting tested for that and see if it is an issue, certain people with COMT mutation c667t also can have lowered levels for some reason.
    Wayne and amaru7 like this.
  4. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    I have comt v158 mutation, dunno about the other. Does Pyroluria deplete all neurotransmitters?
  5. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Hmm not sure about that one, pyroluria does deplete them yes, it is because they become starved of nutrients to keep the neuro transmitters going.. It is easily fixable with treatment of P5P and Zinc though.. They can range in pretty high doses though and would be toxic in someone without the condition. This is why it is vital you find out through testing if you have it, before supplementing anything.
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  6. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    I think I will just have to do some cocaine to get my catecholamine levels to tolerable levels:angel:

    Note but seriously I think this precursor thing wouldn't do much for me, as I had tyrosine levels measured at least and they were normal as I'm not vegetarian and eat enough protein so deficiency wasn't too be expected anyway.

    I wish there was something like synthetic injectable neurotransmitters, wonder why there is nothing like that on the market yet (that I know of) it would be so great.

    As for HPU I didn't actually test for, but my intracellular B6 was petty high at that time while I was taking activated B complex with low dose B6 p5p in it
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  7. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Most neurotransmitters would have a short half life as in minutes like adrenaline. I think why precursors and reuptake inhibitors are used to try and correct these abnormalities? ?
  8. biophile

    biophile Places I'd rather be.

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    Assuming you do have low neurotransmitters (others have already discussed the tests aren't definitive):

    Those amino acid precursors you mentioned are not potent enough.

    For the catecholamines (dopamine > noradrenaline > adrenaline) you may need something like L-DOPA, which is usually administered with carbidopa to prevent the peripheral synthesis of dopamine so that more can cross the blood brain barrier. Without something like carbidopa, B6 should also be avoided as it is a co-factor in synthesis.

    However you may find it difficult to get those prescriptions and may have better luck getting a prescription for an anti-depressant which inhibits the reuptake of those catecholamines.

    There is a natural alternative. I think there is some research, and anecdotes from patients with depression or Parkinson's disease, with extracts of mucuna pruriens, which contains natural L-DOPA and may even contain other chemicals which act similarly to carbidopa and therefore dispense the need to prescribe carbidopa.

    As for serotonin, 5HTP would be better than l-tryptophan, but has a similar problem with peripheral synthesis, especially with B6, and one must be careful when taking anything else which increases the risk of serotonin syndrome (excess).
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  9. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    As for my emotional state, I suffer from serve anhedonia (lack of feeling of any joy) and also I can't feel sadness which I do miss both so much. It's the thing that makes me suffer most actually and I have a wish of dying more and more, basically every day lately as I can't see a point in all this.

    I also lack motivation, aggressiveness, the ability to resonate with any social meetings and also have severe cognitive problems, I do think it fits with the results as neurotransmitters are basic for all these qualities .

    I remember when I took Ritalin once, suddenly just feeling alive was great, listening to music was unbelievably intense like I was listening to music for the first time in my life. Turns out ritalin increases dopamine which explains that intense feeling I suddenly had.

    Unfortunately this isn't a long term solution, but this stuff was potent at making me feel better
  10. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Urinary tests measure peripheral levels of neurotransmitter (NT) metabolites, not the levels of the central nervous system. For that, you would need a spinal tap, and still NT levels vary across different regions of the brain, so it is basically impossible to measure overall.

    If everything comes out low, the first thing I would think of would be low ATP/methylation, as without enough energy and the krebs/methylation cycles running, nothing much gets produced. Perhaps there is also reduced nutrient uptake from gut dysbiosis.
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  11. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    @adreno I know that, but the professor still did that testing, I think he wouldn't have done it if it has no saying at all. He said he rarely ever seen such a low NT result. Also it fits perfectly with my mental state, that's why it must probably is true for my cns levels aswell.

    On this page Dr myhill explains the qualities of these neurotransmitters, which I lack mostly.

    http://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Edge_Effect_-_the_Brain_in_CFS
  12. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    The tests are pseudo-science. Of course, you are welcome to put your faith in anything you want, but I would seriously question the results:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3165907/
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  13. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Neurotransmitters are produced via methylation, and are also produced in the gut. So I would look at those two areas - do you have poor methylation or poor gut function. Gut function can be addressed by the 4R Gut Rebuilding Program and methylation can be addressed by a methylation protocol (see my signature links).

    Heavy metals such as lead and mercury can also screw up methylation which would then lower neurotransmitter production. You can detox those out by doing methylation treatment.

    Coincidentally, I just ran into some very interesting Youtube videos from Dr. Bill Walsh, who is a chemical engineer who ended up testing the nutrient abnormalities in thousands of people with various mental illnesses. With nutrient treatment, patients are feeling much better - many can get off their medications, or cut down to a minimum. He wrote a book called Nutrient Power. Much of what he's saying corroborates with methylation treatment and the things that Amy Yasko says.

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dr bill walsh

    ps. What's interesting in your case, is that glutamate is also low. It's more typical to have high glutamate with low GABA, while most or all of the other transmitters are also low.
  14. Tammy

    Tammy Senior Member

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    Years ago I had an amino acid analyses (plasma).....Most of my amino acids fell below normal range.......including tryptophan and phenylalanine (sp?) . If I remember right.........they made a custom amino acid formula for me to take which in time did make me feel better and brought my levels into normal range. You might consider taking just a basic amino acid formula along with extra (specifics for mood support) I like Montiff's Basic amino's........and then they also have a formula for mood support. Don Tyson is the amino guru who I believe owns Montiff nutraceuticals.
  15. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    @adreno
    "Methylphenidate exerts its therapeutic effects via blocking the reuptake of dopamine into nerve terminals (as well as stimulating the release of dopamine from dopamine nerve terminals) resulting in increased dopamine levels in the synapse."

    Interestingly, wikipedia's sources also mention that methylphenidate increases the magnitude of dopamine release after a stimulus, increasing the salience of the stimulus.

    That's probably why I felt suddenly so alive after taking methylphenidate and just listening to music was such a great joy, it felt like my body molecules were dancing:whistle::):thumbsup:

    So yes this experience indicates the urinary dopamine levels do correlate with my brain levels.

    Read more: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121864#ixzz31mgWpPRm
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
  16. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    modalert works on dopamine, in low doses i find it quite helpful, not stimulating as such but just seems to turn my brain and and improve cognitive endurance. I find between 25-50mg enough where the normal dose is 200mg.
    I have tried a few different things for dopamine and they all seem to work differently, eg dopa macuna worked well but makes me sweat alot which ok if im not out in public. years ago i would find just good old fashion sudafed would help and used it on occassions. But when one is down and out in the middle of a crash, nothing helps but rest, just cant whip a dead horse??
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  17. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Not really, most people would feel like that if they took a dopaminergic agent. It will soon wear off if you take the drug chronically.
    SickOfSickness likes this.
  18. musicchick581

    musicchick581 Senior Member

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    I read that having a urine neurotransmitter test is not conclusive unless you have been previously supplementing with amino acids. So it's a test I'd avoid. I actually have had several done over many years because I was supplementing with 5htp and other neurotransmitter support supplements. We never could get my levels correct.
  19. amaru7

    amaru7 Senior Member

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    I tried amino acid precursors like 5htp and tyrosine too and didn't get any positive results. I guess anything that would seriously change neurotransmitter levels, very soon would become famous and probably also quickly made illegal like crack, cocaine, heroine, MDMA etc. which all influence neurotransmitters to a high degree and would give a short term relief (at least this has been my experience with Ritalin as a methamphetamine derivative) long-term of course this would be bad for health.

    If they ever discover a substance that can more seriously affect neurotransmitter levels, that'd be great and has an immense potential.

    In my opinion, my brain neurotransmitters correlate with my urinary levels, because of my traits and cfs. In social situations especially I was always reserved withdrawn and mostly silent since I was a kid and still till this day find it difficult to socialize and communicate, which makes the burden of my disablity much harder on me. When I made that methylphenidate experience I had an unusually long conversation which had an lovely flow to it, which I liked a lot and it was exactly what I've been missing for so long.

    At the moment I do actually think about getting me some MPH again, but on the other hand the thought is stopping me that long term the benefits will wean off plus I see it as a bad drug, even though it's prescribed to children mostly, but I'm desperate, because I miss being able to communicate with people I'm not able to feel any joy in my life for a very long time, which sucks actually very much and I really don't know what else to do about it.
  20. xks201

    xks201 Senior Member

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    Low thyroid and other hormones like pregnenolone dhea testosterone cortisol could be

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