What is the difference between histadelia undermethylation (high brain histamine, very common with mental illnesses like depression) and CFSs undermethylation. Both are "undermethylators" right? But the treatment is so different. Histadelia is treated mostly with l-methionine and calcium and magnesium, and to avoid folates (?), where as CFS methylation treatment is familiar from here, methyl b12, methylfolate etc.
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Help me understand
- Thread starter Billx123
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aaron_c
Senior Member
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- 691
To the extent which people with ME/CFS are undermethylated, I think it would result from insufficient methylfolate and/or B12, both of which are susceptible to oxidative stress--which, to my knowledge, is the best explanation for our collective problems with them.
There is some debate about just how undermethylated we are, or even how to tell. Some people, like Freddd, encourage people to take high amounts of methylfolate and methylcobalamin (and some other stuff) and to push through "overmethylation" symptoms, which in at least some cases eventually go away. Other people suggest that you can know how "methylated" you are based on your reaction to methylfolate and methylcobalamin. For example if it gives you insomnia, you probably are overmethylated. Still other people, myself included, think that because of the brain's ability to adjust to increased methyl groups, symptoms may not be the best yardstick eg. if a tiny amount of methylfolate and methylcobalamin gives you insomnia, maybe it is because you have been starved for methyl groups but maybe it is because you already have enough.
I am less familiar with histadelia. I see that high copper is blamed for histapenia (low histamine in the brain), so I wonder if low copper might sometimes be a part of histadelia? It also makes sense to me that they would suggest one stay away from folates, insofar as folic acid will compete with methylfolate for entry to cells and once inside cells will gum up the works and slow down formation of methylfolate. In any case, it seems like undermethylation is only one possible cause of histadelia.
There is some debate about just how undermethylated we are, or even how to tell. Some people, like Freddd, encourage people to take high amounts of methylfolate and methylcobalamin (and some other stuff) and to push through "overmethylation" symptoms, which in at least some cases eventually go away. Other people suggest that you can know how "methylated" you are based on your reaction to methylfolate and methylcobalamin. For example if it gives you insomnia, you probably are overmethylated. Still other people, myself included, think that because of the brain's ability to adjust to increased methyl groups, symptoms may not be the best yardstick eg. if a tiny amount of methylfolate and methylcobalamin gives you insomnia, maybe it is because you have been starved for methyl groups but maybe it is because you already have enough.
I am less familiar with histadelia. I see that high copper is blamed for histapenia (low histamine in the brain), so I wonder if low copper might sometimes be a part of histadelia? It also makes sense to me that they would suggest one stay away from folates, insofar as folic acid will compete with methylfolate for entry to cells and once inside cells will gum up the works and slow down formation of methylfolate. In any case, it seems like undermethylation is only one possible cause of histadelia.
Okey. How do you know if "you have been starved" for methyl groups? I took 5 mg methyl b12. 800 mcg methylfolate and 1 mg adeno b12 and got immediately flu for 6 days. I was also more depressed than usual that time. Its now 7. day im feeling better but my brain is very wired. My energy levels got alot better thou. I havent been taking those supps for 4 days now because i think im still feeling them. But i really wanna try them again.
Do you mean folate is different thing than methylfolate? If you have high brain histamine does methylfolate further raise it or not?
Do you mean folate is different thing than methylfolate? If you have high brain histamine does methylfolate further raise it or not?
PeterPositive
Senior Member
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- 1,426
You can do a functional test, checking the status of SAMe, GSH (glutathione), GSSG (oxidized glutathione) and homocysteine. They are usually sold as "methylation panels" (or similar name) and can be rather expensive (~300 bucks)
I have done the test with this lab:
http://www.hdri-usa.com/
Was it useful? Kind of. I already knew I had problems because I had very high homocysteine in previous labs. The methylation test showed I had sufficient folate but insufficient B12, so it helped to understand that.
Am I "cured"? Not really, but at least I am keeping the high homocysteine in check and regained some energy and focus. Better than nothing.
my 2c
Those are big doses to start with. When you try again, be much more cautious. Here is a post about introducing active B12 and folate.
I cant afford 300 dollar tests sorry.. Is there any physical signs i can follow? Should i up the doses slowly over few weeks? Ive been off those supps for 5 days now and my head is still a bit wired and feeling it. First days i could feel the massive detox, hard mental symptoms , big time flu etc. Im gonna wait few more days and then try again.
Let the symptoms subside completely then start again very low and go very slow with increases.