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HELP!: How to get out of Methyl Trap caused by Glutathione supplements?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by giantme, Sep 20, 2014.

  1. giantme

    giantme

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    I was on a similar methylation protocol to active b12 for several months and had made quite a bit of progress - better energy and some symptoms improving. Under recommendations from my practitioner I tried some L-Glutathione (3 x times) from which I ended up worse than when I started the protocol and I have been unable to reverse its effect and am in Methyl Trap.

    • I now have a lot more fatigue, heavy arms / legs / less energy and experienced all the symptoms that Fredd discussed in his discussions of it hitting hard.
    • A few weeks ago I started the Active B12 therapy (not much different to the previous one) and am slowly titrating up my B12 (MB12 5mg/day/sublingual + ADB12 3mg ) and 5-Mthf (3mg) but haven't really improved or experienced startup.
    • I haven't taken LCF yet as I am still titrating up and I'm also taking the other critical co-factors and vitamins etc and have read all the great docs that have been prepared on taking in slow and the unofficial guides etc.
    • After reading Fredds posts on these he seems to say that to get out of a glutathione induced trap you need to supplement with much larger doses to startup?.

    My next steps were:

    * Keep persevering with the titration before adding LCF - how much further?
    * Leave the B12 / 5-MTHF levels as is and add in the LCF as the final leg of the deadlock quartet then start with any of the others TMG
    * Other options?

    Has anyone else had this happen and what do people recommend for getting out of for a trap caused by Glutathione supplements? - are the bigger doses critical to re-saturate the tissues?

    Your thoughts and own experiences are greatly appreciated
     
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I don't have any answers. But you might look in the pdf linked in my signature. Compiled posts from Fred.
     
  3. PatJ

    PatJ far and free I gaze

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    In the following thread:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ies-please-post-here.14115/page-4#post-233868

    Freddd says:
    "I was on up to 2400mcg daily of Metafolin for 6 months after discontinuing glutathione precursors and it didn't help. Then someone suggested ramping that up a lot. It worked. After 6 months of continued downhill, a single dose of 8mg of Metafolin multiple 10mg injections of mb12 and several 50mg doses of adb12 I finally started turning it around. I had been doing 5mg injections of mb12 before that, also without effect. It took a lot more than my normal doses to overturn the effects of glutathione."
     
  4. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    @giantme what about the other Bs? Do you also take enough B2, B3, B6 etc... They are also very important for starting up the methylation cycle.
     
  5. giantme

    giantme

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    Thanks everyone for your comments and ideas - I am taking b complex etc, all essential co-factors and the deadlock quartet but am not sure about the levels of MB-12, AD-B12 and Folate needed to get out of the trap (I have tried a week of high doses -> 6mg mfolate, 10mg MB-12 and 20mg ADB12 +1g LCF). I am also not too keen to go much further than this as these levels are pretty high!

    Fredd has a few posts on this but I am unsure how long you would have to maintain those doses for (to replenish the B12 and folate in the cells)? - I am assuming until the symptoms back off when the tissues are re-saturated?

    Any ideas or personal experiences on getting out of methyl trapping? - my main symptoms are very heavy legs and easily fatigued / delayed fatigue which were not present before the Glutathione?
     
  6. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    @giantme in what form did you take the glutathione?
     
  7. giantme

    giantme

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    @knackers323 Oral L-Glutathione liquid (1tsp) x 3 days
     
  8. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Ok I always thought oral glutathione was ineffective
     
  9. PatJ

    PatJ far and free I gaze

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    6mg methylfolate isn't that high. The range of effectiveness can go up to around 20-30mg depending on your reaction to vegetable folates and the degree to which they interfere with absorption. Anything above 30mg of methylfolate per day usually means there's something driving the need higher such as taking too much B1,2,3 or interference from supplementary folic acid, folinic acid, or vegetable folate.

    I'm currently taking 16mg (3200mg 5 times per day) and might need a little more before hitting a balance point.

    In the fragment I posted above it looks like Freddd had to exceed a certain threshold before he got out of methyltrap. Once out you would probably need to re-adjust your dosages to find a balance point that maintains healing while staying out of paradoxical folate insufficiency and potassium deficiency.

    The dosages needed to maintain healing are based on titrating to the point where you no longer notice any symptom changes, can keep out of PFI and potassium deficiency, and then staying at that dose. It isn't that healing stops but that it builds momentum during titration and then cruises along once you hit your personal balance doses for each item. They will sometimes need tweaking as healing progresses. Eventually you may be able to reduce the doses of some items, but may find that the core items will become life-long supports for maintaining decent health.
     
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  10. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    @PatJ have you ever done a 23andme (or equivalent) test to check your methylation snps?

    I ask because I'd be curious to see if there's any correlation between the need for very high doses of folate/B12 and specific configurations of those snps.

    Cheers
     
  11. PatJ

    PatJ far and free I gaze

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    I plan to do 23andme at some point when my budget allows for it. Hopefully that will be soon now that I've got a decent supply of supplements together that has allowed for starting and continuing Freddd's protocol.

    I think my high MF requirement is due to a diet fairly high in natural folate. I'm vegetarian and hypoglycemic. I need to eat a small meal eight times per day to keep my blood sugar up. That meal needs some carbs, fat, and protein to keep me going to the next meal. I rely on sourdough bread (home-made from fresh ground grain, so there are no additives), yogurt, granola, nuts, and vegetables. I don't do well with beans so nuts, yogurt and the grains are my main protein sources. Everything but the yogurt has at least some folate, and the nuts are particularly high, but are only eaten in small quantities. I don't eat any processed food so I don't get any added folic or folinic acid.

    When I first started the protocol a few weeks ago I found out very quickly that green vegetables would put me into PFI so I'm sticking to lower folate vegetables. Fortunately I don't seem have any sensitivity to MF (except for 2 hours of anxiety on the first day, and possibly gas from the mannitol in 20 tablets per day) and have been able to rapidly reach my 16mg/day balance point. I followed Freddd's recommendation and increased whenever PFI symptoms arose, which was basically every other day until I hit 16mg a few days ago.

    For the main supplements in the protocol I'm currently taking 7mg mb12 (2 Enzy - 1 AM, 1 PM; and 1 Country Life 5mg in AM), 5mg adb12, 16mg MF, 3200mg Potassium. I take Enzy and Country Life because more than one Enzy at a time gives me an upset stomach and a feeling of aversion from my body. They're quite sweet for someone who doesn't eat added sugar in food. I've wondered if I might be reacting to the fructose or the "natural flavor" in them when I take more than one at a time.

    Hopefully something in this response will also be of use to giantme, I didn't intend to divert the thread with a long reply.
     
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  12. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Ben Lynch said that you should take NAD (a form of niacin) with glutathione to make sure it's converting to the good reduced glutathione instead of making the bad oxidized glutathione. It could be that the effects you're experiencing are from that instead of methyl trapping.

    If you take too much niacin, it will slow or stop methylation. The amount used to do this is 50-100mg. So it would seem that you should keep NAD under that amount if you decide to try it. Note that a normal niacin pill is 500mg.
     
  13. LivingwithFibro

    LivingwithFibro Senior Member

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    Does he recommend any specific brand for NAD? :)
     
  14. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I'm sure he has some he can sell you. He does make some really high quality supplements, many of which are formulated for methylation treatment. http://www.seekinghealth.com/

    But really for NAD anything will work I think. I've tried a couple different brands from iHerb and they both worked fine.
     
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  15. LivingwithFibro

    LivingwithFibro Senior Member

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    Cool, thanks!

    And what are your experiences with it? Do you feel a herx reaction when you take it with Glutathione?
     
  16. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I haven't tried taking it with glutathione, but I did take it when I was overmethylating on TMG. From what I remember, I just felt relief of symptoms for awhile. That particular OD was pretty bad and it took me dosing four times a day for a week to totally clear it.

    I did get the famous niacin flush sometimes about an hour after taking the niacin. My arms and legs turned very red like they were sun burnt and I felt hot. I think I also may have had tingling hands and feet. It lasted about an hour I think. It won't hurt anything, but it might surprise you, especially if you're not expecting it. :)
     
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