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Heavy metal detoxing

Ian

Senior Member
Messages
283
When I had the amalgams removed or they tested my mercury levels and used DMPS....I had to go to the ER. My heart was flying, I couldn't get out of bed, etc.

Yeah well chelators are meant for acute exposure, not chronic exposure. If you use these chemicals you will strip your body of various minerals that it needs. Really they are quite dangerous. Also if you genuinely are mercury toxic, chelators can just move it about in your body causing more damage. Safer to just let it come out on it's own, or use something like vitamin C IV.
 

Sparrowhawk

Senior Member
Messages
514
Location
West Coast USA
High dose chelators / challenge tests can be a disaster for folks who are metal toxic due to redistribution.

However, frequent low dose chelation has seriously been the only thing that has significantly improved my situation inf five years of trying many different approaches.

As well, you supplement things like zinc, magnesium, vitamin C etc. on and off round to compensate for any vitamin and minteral losses during a chelation round. And you take at least 4 day breaks in between three day rounds so the body can recover.

Mercury is way better out than in.
 

sianrecovery

Senior Member
Messages
828
Location
Manchester UK
Thanks Sparrowhawk, that's very encouraging. I had a similar thought re ALA. The peeps at the FDG suggested working with one of the Cutler trained practitioners, hence me setting up this appointment. I also have some liver cautions - although I am now clear, I had Hep C for a long time, leaving some scarring etc. I also have candida issues, which I understand chelation can exacerbate. I tested higher than desirable for lead, which may or may not require DMSA. Or is it DMPS? And there you have a perfect example of why intermittently cognitively impaired MEers need all the help they can get when medication decisions :)

Good luck with your process.
 

Sparrowhawk

Senior Member
Messages
514
Location
West Coast USA
@sianrecovery yes it is DMSA that is for lead, though it is the one that can exacerbate candida symptoms. There is a file on the FDC group that is specifically to help support neutrophils while you chelate w. DMSA.

I think the recommendation is to do four rounds w. DMSA to clear "free" lead, and then do it once a month only for three years, to try to get the lead that comes out when the bones are growing anew.

Very best to you as well for your efforts in healing!
 

Eeyore

Senior Member
Messages
595
If you don't have high blood levels of heavy metals, there is no evidence chelation can help you. There really isn't anything you can do yourself to remove heavy metals - although you can try to not add more of them.

Chelators don't really do much of anything if the metals are distributed in tissues and not in the blood (hence the reason you test the blood).

Real chelation therapy would need to be done by a doctor, and would only be done if you had elevated levels on blood tests. Be warned though, some docs who are big on chelation therapy are quacks - the ones who think it's a cure-all for anything and everything. There is no evidence that any chelation therapy is broadly useful to ME patients who do not have elevated levels of heavy metals.

There may be some evidence that vitamin C can chelate some metals, and is safe in moderate doses. I doubt it really does much though. It does increase the absorption of iron when taken simultaneously.
 

Sam7777

Senior Member
Messages
115
People as is often suggested should just read amalgam illness. Lipoic goes into basically every square inch of the body, which is why it is so dangerous and so critical with mercury. But people should also listen to all the videos on youtube of christopher shade.

ALA is a weak chelator, but by weak we're talking maybe a 1/3 a strength of DMPS. The whole point is that it is a longer slower safer treatment, and is a natural endogenous molecule of the body involved in cellular metabolism. And, also cutlers primary arguments center on its effect on equilibrium of tissues in the body, in that this longer slower approach with ALA helps create a passive equilibrium process that pulls mercury out of deep places, especially the equilibrium of the BBB.

Where I diverge from Cutler, is that I think RLA is a bit more potent than ALA. The third reason ALA is the ideal chelator is because it is a neutraceutical in its own right, acting to increase peoples cellular metabolism through its ability to alter redox states and free radicals and its ability to generate recycling of antioxidants inside cells. RLA should not be considered as good of a direct chelator as ALA, but ALA is not as good of a neutraceutical as RLA. So I tend to agree that ALA should be used in very low doses, especially, because I do think it has more the danger of a chelator, and the benefits.

Almost none of the naturopaths do Hg correctly. I have seen little to no good science on Hg removal outside shade and cutler. Neither use high dose single treatments or IV's.
 

npeden

NPeden, Monterey, CA
Messages
81
People as is often suggested should just read amalgam illness. Lipoic goes into basically every square inch of the body, which is why it is so dangerous and so critical with mercury. But people should also listen to all the videos on youtube of christopher shade.

ALA is a weak chelator, but by weak we're talking maybe a 1/3 a strength of DMPS. The whole point is that it is a longer slower safer treatment, and is a natural endogenous molecule of the body involved in cellular metabolism. And, also cutlers primary arguments center on its effect on equilibrium of tissues in the body, in that this longer slower approach with ALA helps create a passive equilibrium process that pulls mercury out of deep places, especially the equilibrium of the BBB.

Where I diverge from Cutler, is that I think RLA is a bit more potent than ALA. The third reason ALA is the ideal chelator is because it is a neutraceutical in its own right, acting to increase peoples cellular metabolism through its ability to alter redox states and free radicals and its ability to generate recycling of antioxidants inside cells. RLA should not be considered as good of a direct chelator as ALA, but ALA is not as good of a neutraceutical as RLA. So I tend to agree that ALA should be used in very low doses, especially, because I do think it has more the danger of a chelator, and the benefits.

Almost none of the naturopaths do Hg correctly. I have seen little to no good science on Hg removal outside shade and cutler. Neither use high dose single treatments or IV's.

sam, i basically agree especially about amalgam based illness due largely to fillings. well i finally got all my nasty amalgms are out. i chelated with the guidance of a nutritionist and it was a very simple chelation w chlorella, charcoal and vit. c. i expect most of you may diss this but according to testin hg is gone or very low, lead too and as is almost magically, my life long candida is gone. what a romance hg and candida have!

as mthfr c677t, ala and these other chelators scare me. i have used dmsa but feel comfortable with what i have done for now. as i have a very cooperative primary, i can now get blood work for these levels.

is someone here going to tell me that hair analysis is better? if medicare and blue shield wont cover a test i can no longer afford these expensive speciality labs or docs. this enrages me.

thanks for the post, sam. i will leave my alert on for awhile in hopes of any replies. then i will move on to two of my major problems, insomnia, epigentically probably ptsd based, certainly genetically impacted by a tested lack of gaba and my other problem, chronic, inherited nausea.any direction is much apprecited and i do know the wonders of this search tool.

PR you are a wonderful resource. i recommend you lots.
 
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alicec

Senior Member
Messages
1,572
Location
Australia
Where I diverge from Cutler, is that I think RLA is a bit more potent than ALA. The third reason ALA is the ideal chelator is because it is a neutraceutical in its own right, acting to increase peoples cellular metabolism through its ability to alter redox states and free radicals and its ability to generate recycling of antioxidants inside cells. RLA should not be considered as good of a direct chelator as ALA, but ALA is not as good of a neutraceutical as RLA. So I tend to agree that ALA should be used in very low doses, especially, because I do think it has more the danger of a chelator, and the benefits.

Could you please explain the distinction you are making between ALA and RLA. ALA is a 50:50 racemic mixture of R and L forms or which only the R form is biologically active. Why would you advocate something which is 50% inactive?
 

Sam7777

Senior Member
Messages
115
Let me try to specify.

Shade is a proponent of Sodium R lipoic acid and his research largely matches the numerous peer reviewed papers I have read on R lipoic. Cutler is adamant to not use RLA at all, and insists and has for decades to use ALA because ALA is where all the research is at.

ALA is a racemate which as you say is 50% biologically inactive in terms of its ability to be absorbed properly for primary effect on cells, especially mitochondria and the important roles that lipoic plays in transcription of DNA. But what I at least speculate, is that in some way this is a good thing based on Cutler's argument that ALA should be used as a chelation agent that effects equilibrium in the body, thus observing the half life and deriving specific pharmaceutical effects from this indirect effect of ALA as opposed to direct cellular effect. . .half of it is inactive, but that half still mobilizes and attaches to mercury... and Cutler is correct that free RLA (the kind not sold as sodium RLA) is very unstable. In fact it will degrade on you if you don't keep it well stored, and is generally not something that dissolves well in liquid, so its usually a tablet.

With ALA it degrades to DHLA, but specifically the (R)+DHLA and (S)-DHLA both which move mercury around. But RLA gets metabolized more, used more by the body. So I speculate that this slows down its ability to actually persist and mobilize in the body like the S fraction.

On the other hand there are a lot of reasons why taking a 'critical threshold' of RLA is good, generally, especially for people who don't have mercury poisoning. Shade doesn't use very large doses of RLA and is insistent that it will not cause redistribution. But it is a bit unnerving. I've personally tried to take RLA in single large doses without any issue, but I've noticed redistribution symptoms when I took it in frequent doses and missed a dose or took it slightly too late or absorbed it poorly because of a full stomach of food.

Come to think of it, the safest bet would be to apply a transdermal application of lipoic every 2 hours or 2.5 hours to be honest....its a pain at first. I've tried RLA suppositories, and that is a hassle as well.

There are of course even more reasons why Cutler probably hates RLA, but none of them I can even begin to speculate on, as he seems quite hush about it.

I'm pretty sure RLA affects me much less than ALA though. I get some horrible side effects from ALA in particular. And I tolerate much smaller doses. But based on what Cutler says, and on the papers I've read, I'm still going to likely shoot for 15 mg of ALA each dose, and perhaps add RLA to it, at least as long as the ALA doesn't beat me up too much. If I get desperate enough I might give up on ALA all together. But the science I just mentioned is what I believe to be true.
 

Beyond

Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!
Messages
1,122
Location
Murcia, Spain
What if your autoimmune illness started with aluminum exposure? That was my case 100% sure. Would ALA touch that? Furthermore, is the heavy metal a problem anymore after half a decade, or is it how it shifted the immune homeostasis into an imbalanced th1, th2 dominant system (oversimplifying these intricate processes that immunologists fail to identify)?

According to what I have read (lots)... Any significant amount of heavy metals introduced in the body will screw up your immune system, and sometimes it will stay "looped" even if the metal is eventually excreted.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,952
What if your autoimmune illness started with aluminum exposure? That was my case 100% sure. Would ALA touch that? Furthermore, is the heavy metal a problem anymore after half a decade, or is it how it shifted the immune homeostasis into an imbalanced th1, th2 dominant system (oversimplifying these intricate processes that immunologists fail to identify)?

According to what I have read (lots)... Any significant amount of heavy metals introduced in the body will screw up your immune system, and sometimes it will stay "looped" even if the metal is eventually excreted.

Maybe homeopathic aluminum would help.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,952
I'm sure this only happens in rabbits.

I didn't know what caspase-3 is, so I had to look it up.

"The CASP3protein is a member of the cysteine-aspartic acid protease (caspase) family.[2] Sequential activation of caspases plays a central role in the execution-phase of cell apoptosis. Caspases exist as inactive proenzymes that undergo proteolytic processing at conserved aspartic residues to produce two subunits, large and small, that dimerize to form the active enzyme. This protein cleaves and activates caspases 6 and 7; and the protein itself is processed and activated by caspases 8, 9, and 10. It is the predominant caspase involved in the cleavage ofamyloid-beta 4A precursor protein, which is associated with neuronal death inAlzheimer's disease. Alternative splicing of this gene results in two transcript variants that encode the same protein.[3"

The endoplasmic reticulum is the main site for caspase-3 activation following aluminum-induced neurotoxicity in rabbit hippocampus.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12009527