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Health supplements helpful or not.

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by maccas dad, Mar 2, 2017.

  1. maccas dad

    maccas dad

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    Hello

    Just wondering if anybody has heard of a supplement regime under the heading of 'Thrive'. I believe there are a range of products and one called 'lifestyle dft' has been promoted on a website by someone with CFS/ME who says that since taking this product their symptoms have much improved.

    In the 'lifestyle' product there does appear to be a combination of classic ingredients but of course as always I suppose there is the caveat that what works for one etc.

    Also this could be a promotion push by the makers of the product so would be interested in anyone's experience.
     
    JaimeS likes this.
  2. TigerLilea

    TigerLilea Senior Member

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    I've never heard of them before but I'm guessing that they are probably very over priced supplements that don't do much except empty your wallet.
     
    Alvin2, belize44, Dainty and 4 others like this.
  3. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Hi @maccas dad ,

    I haven't heard of them either, and I'm hugely into natural medicine supplements. Do you have a link you can post?

    (I'm currently very excited by the methylation protocol - if you look in the Treatments forum, you can find an enormous amount of info about it. It starts with B12. Very interesting.)

    Anyway, put a link up to this Thrive site, and I expect we'll all go and have a look and tell you what we think. I suspect what @TigerLilea said is likely to be spot on, but it's always good to look around at new stuff before writing it off. I tend to find that the multi products touted as CFS/ FMS treatment specifics are usually just a general bunch of common or garden supplements that you are invariably better off buying separately. It's a shame that even the natrceuticals industry is getting as greedy as its pharmaceutical counterpart. I always check labels and quantities. I sometimes look at seriously expensive products, thinking they must have something incredible in them, only to find that not only are the ingredients very basic and often in insignificant amounts for me, but that they've also used the least bioavailable forms of everything, so straight folic acid instead of methylfolate or folinic acid, cyanocobalamin instead of methylB12 or adensosylB12, and magnesium oxide instead of mag citrate, or other forms - the oxided mineral forms are amongst the worst in terms of what you can absorb from them. I'm stunned that they get away with it, but I guess people think you get what you pay for, so if a product is pricey, we tend to think it must be good :)
     
  4. eljefe19

    eljefe19

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    I don't know the specific supplement you're talking about but there are a million out there and they all have different effects. Yes, some are going to be helpful. Personally, I take supplements that activate or upregulate the Akt/mTOR pathway or inhibit SIRT1. These have proven to be helpful noticeably. I've tried several other regimens in the past, but I'm convinced I'm onto something now. I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.
     
  5. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @eljefe19
    Hi, at the risk of hijacking macca's dad's thread, could you explain more about the Akt/mTOR pathway and SIRT1, please?

    How helpful have supplements influencing these areas been to you? - Like everyone else here, I'm always up for learning about new potential workarounds, resolutions, improvements, etc. :)
     
  6. eljefe19

    eljefe19

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    I'd be glad to help but I'm brain fogged AF right now. Basically, mTOR/Akt is underactive and SIRT1 is overexpressed, based on the study by Fluge and Mella that showed PDH dysfunction and PDK upregulation. You just follow the money so to speak and you get to mTOR/Akt and SIRT1/4.
     
    Helen likes this.
  7. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Thanks, @eljefe19, I'm afraid I didn't understand a word of that! Could you maybe PM me when you're less foggy, please? None of these pathways are familiar to me, so I'm not understanding any of your abbreviations :-/

    Hope to hear from you soon,

    Thanks :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2017
  8. UKmum

    UKmum

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    I had a look around and I think Thrive might be some kind of pyramid selling business with a few people making lots of money at the top- no idea how good the supplements are but don't like this sort of aggressive business model based on commission rather than quality of products. Too shiny to be real.
     
    Jigsaw likes this.
  9. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @UKmum

    I couldn't agree more!
     
  10. eljefe19

    eljefe19

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    @Jigsaw check this out; This is the original post on this forum (credit to u/nandixon) that outlines the theory of underactive Akt/mTOR. Here is an article on mTOR, and here is one on SIRT1. There was a Fluge and Mella study at the end of last year that showed for the first time that the PDH enzyme is downregulated in ME/CFS. So, if you know what the pathways look like mapped out, (I'm an Econ major by the way), you can extrapolate from the F&M study that mTOR is underactive and SIRT1 is over expressed. That's all you really need to know, the articles I linked to have supplements and medications that correct both these problems.
     
    Helen and Jigsaw like this.
  11. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @eljefe19

    Brilliant, Thanks, will go and have a shufty :)
     
  12. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    Ah, SelfHacked. I am familiar with this blog :) Though not mTOR. Yet.

    Will come back to it tomorrow. Brain fading a bit now 11.30pm here, and I haven't had my usual 11pm "Ping!" Probably because I've been on here too much today. So much new information to assimilate and extrapolate....all very exciting.

    So what are you taking for your particular set of mTOR and SIRT issues? Has it helped a bit? A lot? Massively? Are you fixed, or is it, once again, a piece of the puzzle but not the whole answer?
     
  13. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    I think that supplements are very helpful--for testing hypotheses. Is p38-MAPK involved in the disorder? Try a supplement that is supposed to suppress it. Magnesium deficiency? Give it a try and see. Is there a set of supplements that are guaranteed to cure CFS (or anything else)? If you have more money than sense, go ahead and give them your credit card #. If nothing else, it's good for the economy. :rolleyes:
     
  14. eljefe19

    eljefe19

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    Added by @Hip in a previous discussion.

    I agree with your main point but according to Hip you may want to be boosting P38 not suppressing.
     
  15. Stretched

    Stretched Senior Member

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    I scanned this thread and maybe missed a key point in answer to the efficacy of supplements, sic in ME/CFS... . I found the answer to be 'it depends.'

    It is significant to weigh the dosage of supplements as there are 3 levels to consider:
    1. Supplemental - where one is deficient in a vitamin, e.g. Vit E. The dose is usually minimal, e.g. the mfr's daily recommended dose to attain 'MDR' (controversial).
    2. Maintenance - where one is following an established (arbitrary) MDR, e.g. of Vitamin E, the dose may be 50% of the labeled recommendation.
    3. Therapeutic - where one is wanting to effect a change in a biological function, an effective dose here may need to be 10x or more the labeled recommended dose. Indeed, if we look
    at the original studies this is the level where desired is effected. No mfr is going to
    recommend 100k mg Vit E on its label (as e.g. Dr. Coimba uses it in high levels for efficacy, as a steroid), nor on any 'supplement,' which of course is not 'intended to treat' anything!

    My point is, the to answer the question 'do supplements help?' one needs to do some research on each supplement. I have done my share and have found it's the quantity of a given compound that gets the results one reads about. IMO, a guesstimate for efficacy as a rule of thumb is a minimum of 5x the labeled dose (rhe one for 'maintenance to supplementation", on the bottle).
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  16. Wishful

    Wishful Senior Member

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    My example was just that trying things has a chance to identify factors that actually do something. I've tried things that 'should' make my symptoms worse, just to test a hypothesis. Sometimes it's far easier to acquire things that 'should' make things worse than it is to acquire ones that 'should' make things better. Apigenin is supposed to suppress p38, so I tried something else that should do the same thing (no effect). Apigenin is also supposed to suppress CD40 activation, but so is luteolin, and it had no effect, even though apigenin is supposed to convert to luteolin in the body.

    I did look into the various pathways involved. Whew, the immune system is ridiculously complicated. It's amazing that it doesn't break down more often.
     

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