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Healing symptoms when using B12/Folate actually B2 deficiency?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Methhead81, Apr 11, 2016.

  1. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    Can someone fill me in on if this information is accurate or not.

    I was talking to the guy who runs the B12Oils website, he is quite knowledgeable about B12 issues, but when I asked him about B12 healing symptoms ("Start Up").

    "
    Is it true that it's normal for B12 to cause certain negative side effects if you have been deficient for so long, as the B12 is making the body do things it hasn't done in a very long time?

    It sounds like a way misunderstood rumbling from the web. If you have a vitamin B2 deficiency, then you may react to folate and/or methyl B12.
    "

    So basically he is saying B2 deficiency is the cause behind the symptoms some get when introducing B12 into the body.

    Obviously B vitamins are very important, but is there any information that suggest this is remotely the case? I had potassium deficiency symptoms that went away when I supplemented with potassium gluconate, so I am thinking he may be wrong in this area.

     
  2. Teddybear92

    Teddybear92

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    It's recommended for MS too. Has anyone had any help from it? I was suggested it. I thought about b-complex instead because you get more B's for your buck :) (lol) (more vitamin b types in one capsule so cheaper and healthier if you are deficient of those other types too)
     
  3. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    Right, I am bothered by the Niacin in my B Complex as it gives me a flush. I really could use some advice on how to avoid it.

    I am not really getting an answer to my question, though I assume the guy I quoted may have been wrong since I recall Freddd getting copper deficiency due to his methylation processes.
     
  4. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    I don't think there is a contradiction here, just the effects of different delivery methods on different people.

    I vaguely remember @garyfritz saying that the advantage of the b12 oils is that you don't have start-up because you don't have that huge spike from sublingual b12.

    We started with Freddd's slow-and-low approach, moved to b12 oils ASAP, then added FMN (a form of B2) on the basis of comments from @ahmo . Adding FMN has led to a drop in the amount of methylfolate needed (some days, diet is enough).

    The low-and-slow approach seems to avoid the whole scary start-up thing altogether, which I think is good.

    Freddd's symptom list has been a fantastic guide for us. Even now, with the FMN, that symptom list has been great to help us identify when we need more methylfolate.
     
    ahmo likes this.
  5. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    @CCC, I don't think the gradual/steady B12 delivery of the oils is going to have a big effect on B12 startup effects. Its advantage is that you keep a steady delivery going, so you keep the levels steady in your bloodstream.

    @Methhead81, flushing is a normal response to high levels of niacin. It may not be real pleasant but it doesn't really hurt anything, as long as you're not using huge amounts. You can often get "used" to niacin and the flushing can reduce over time.
     
  6. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    I found a B-Complex without the flushing type of niacin. Will order some of that later this week.

    There is another thing that was said I need to know your opinions on. I believe I dug myself into a deep methyl trap by eating a diet high in folate but fairly low in B12 (which I think was kept stable by eating many foods which, while considered bad for your health, had enough B12 to keep my levels from tanking despite the foods also adding to my health issues) when trying to address Candida. However this was said by him.

    "
    And regarding the relationship between B12 and Folate, if you were to be deficient in B12 but keep eating foods high in Folate, would this decrease B12 levels, hence making the symptoms worse?
    Your question is a little unclear. Once again this sounds like a bit of misunderstanding from the web. Folate and B12 are inter-related, but if you don't have folate you have big problems. If you don't have B12 you have big problems. Even if you have folate and B12, if you don't have B2 you have big problems.
    "

    He puts a lot of emphasis on B2 for some reason still. He claims it's an unclear question but I read that B12 and Folate, like minerals, need to be kept in a steady balance. However this implies this isn't so much the case. And plus I heard too much Folate can mask a B12 deficiency.

    I am approaching this B12/Folate thing with so much caution because of the talks of paradoxical folate deficiency and so forth, I regret neglecting my B Vitamins as they are probably helping my various symptoms, partially because the complex has niacin, but also because I am worried it will increase the need for folate, which I am trying to keep low until I decide to try B12 again.

     
  7. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    I think the reason he puts a big emphasis on B2 is that it's utilized to process the other B vitamins. If you don't have enough B2 your cells will likely be low in all the Bs even if you're taking lots of them.

    About B12 and folate. You need enough B12 to keep folate in the cells where it does its work instead of circulating. That's one of B12s many tasks.
     
    Ninan likes this.
  8. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    Yeah, though I heard some (such as Freddd) need more Methylfolate if they have too much vegetable folate or from folic acid. This is a methyl trap apparently.

    I assume the folate does harm if it doesn't go into the cells?

    Sorry, it's just I am trying to see if my theory that I worsened due to the excess folate in face of a B12 deficiency is plausible. I was developing more symptoms suddenly after my diet changes.
     
  9. Sea

    Sea Senior Member

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    Too much folate can mask a B12 deficiency because it can change some of the things that are tested to see if you have a B12 deficiency. For example MCV (mean cell volume) increases in B12 deficiency. With enough folate supplementation this can return to normal but you would still have a B12 deficiency and it would still be causing damage.

    Finding the right balance is good, but it is more important just to make sure you have enough. As long as you have enough B12 having extra folate won't cause a B12 deficiency.
     
  10. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    Thanks.

    I assume the extra folate with a lack of B12 put me in a Methyltrap or something. At least I am doing something about this now rather than later.

    I will take some B12 tomorrow morning to see how I tolerate it. Without Folate, it's only 1mg (which I tolerate well).
     
  11. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    Yes, it's possible to cause harm with too much folate with low B12. Circulating folate can cause neuropathy.

    @Methhead81
     
  12. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    Interesting, @helen1. I assume there is no similar risk with circulating B12? Everything I've read says there is no known toxic level for B12, no risk of overdosing.
     
  13. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    That would explain the numbness on my right thigh that started while on that diet (when lying in bed mostly). I didn't get much tingling though, however I did get more tingling in my hands after my short B12/Folate trial (where I took high doses).
     
  14. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    I am trying it out again, took a few doses of B12 (around 4000mcg in total), didn't get as much of a response. I didn't take Methylfolate earlier (did in a B complex, only 200mcg or so), so I am assuming the Folate may be a limiting factor if I don't take it.

    Had a little bit of itchy sensations and burning head stuff, it was minor and tolerable.
     
  15. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    Is this possibly ruining absorption? I get the juice from the dissolving tablet going into my throat, so I accidentally swallow it. I keep it under the tongue at all times, so is this alright?

    I am getting itchy sensations around the thyroid and tongue when I do this.
     
  16. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    Can I suggest you try some of the things that helped us a lot:
    The key for us has been to start low and go slow. And to be consistent. A bit of B12 here and some methylfolate there might make you feel like a car with a learner driver learning how to change gears - stops, starts and shuddering stalls everywhere!
     
  17. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    I read most of those documents. I suppose I should just back away from the Folate for now.

    How about this, I can tolerate around 2mg of B12 (in fact 1mg doesn't cause much of an effect at all), so how about I just do 2mg for a few days, and then increase it to 3mg? At some point add Metafolin (receiving it in the mail shortly!) and take it twice a day (400mcg). The thing is I Am not as sensitive to things as some on here, though with my little experiment with high doses of B12 and Folate, I do need to be somewhat careful (which implies those two are pretty important for myself) with those two.

    I could just do 1mg for a week I suppose, that would be safer. It can cause a tingling around my thyroid area for some reason even at that dose.
     
  18. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    I don't know much about the thyroid connection. It's not an issue for us. But the tingling suggests something is going on. Have you had blood tests for thyroid at all? What about iodine, selenium?

    Freddd also recommends a low-dose B-complex (such as the Jarrow B-right - just make sure it has methylfolate rather than folic acid). It might be a good idea so you avoid the trap of unbalancing B vitamins.
     
  19. Methhead81

    Methhead81

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    The tingling is around other areas of the body too, not just the thyroid area (basically the front neck).

    I had a thyroid test, borderline hypothyroid with low iodine. I take Selenium (around 400mcg).

    I also take Jarrow B-Right, I think splitting one of those into two works a little better and avoids the niacin flush.

    Based on that short experience, it did take a fairly high amount of B12 and Folate to induce a response. I am thinking of trying B12 oils out anyway in the next few months rather than sublingual tablets, apparently they offer better absorption over a period of time, apparently on par with injections.

    I may not have mentioned this, I had more fatigue and a few joint and muscle pains during that short experiment. It was definitely the result of the B12 and Folate no doubt, wasn't doing anything else that normally causes those symptoms at the time. In fact I felt the return of a few old symptoms that went away a few months ago, prior to what I believe was a deeper methyl trap.
     
  20. CCC

    CCC Senior Member

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    We moved to the methylB12 oil fairly quickly. It gave a much smoother ride. On the basis of our experience, I'd highly recommend it. Our experience also suggests that Greg from b12oils is right about needing B2, although we needed it as FMN (and only 1/4 of a tablet at a time - constant low dose is needed).

    After starting FMN, our need for methylfolate plummeted and we can get enough from food on most days. Some days, though, something seems to be happening, and we might need a few methylfolate tablets to keep things smooth.

    Anyway, have a great day. It's time for me to head off to work (I'm not the one with ME/CFS).
     

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