• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Having wrist surgery in January and update.

Misfit Toy

Senior Member
Messages
4,178
Location
USA
@zzz I stopped the topamax last night because at even just 12.5 mg I was still a zombie. I don't get it. I feel disheartened. It helped with pain. Anyway, will try the 6.25 but I am nervous. Such a small pill causing me to be so zombified. This one woman on the fibro page said she was on 200 mg a day and felt no effect! WHAT?

Anymore I'm sort of scared to go to bed. It's the waking up. I can't get up in the AM. I am dead weight and bump into walls. It's adrenal related but nope can't touch them without some strange effect. Salt is it.

I'd give anything to wake up chipper and actually feel awake. Like, skippity do da...skippity day...my oh my what a wonderful day. Instead I lay there like a dead fish.
 

zzz

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Oregon
@Misfit Toy, I'm sorry you're still having troubles with the Topamax! :( However, what you've been experiencing is not unexpected, and should be easy to fix. :)

@zzzI stopped the topamax last night because at even just 12.5 mg I was still a zombie. I don't get it.

Here's what's most likely happening: Topamax has a plasma half life of 21 hours, which means that once you stop taking it, the amount in your blood decreases by half every 21 hours. Since you were taking a daily dose just a little after one half life, this adds to the blood plasma concentration each day, and this process continues until your plasma concentration levels off in about about four half lives, or close to four days for Topamax. At this point, your plasma levels are almost twice what they were after the first dose.

Due to this doubling effect, if you cut your dose in half, your plasma levels are reduced by only a quarter on the first day of the lower dose, although on subsequent days they will gradually decline to what they were on the lower dose. But the plasma levels don't determine what you experience; it's the tissue levels (in this case the brain tissue) that really count. Although plasma half lives are generally given for all drugs, tissue half lives usually are not. There are two main reasons for this: First, it's much easier to take a blood sample than a tissue sample (especially of the brain), and second, the tissue half lives differ depending on what tissues in the body you're talking about. For example, the tissue half life of magnesium is 40 to 80 days. That doesn't mean there's a large uncertainty in this number; what it means is that some parts of the body will clear out half their magnesium every 40 days, while other parts will take 80 days.

For Topamax, as with many (if not most) drugs, the tissue half life appears to be unknown. The tissue half life is always at least as much as the plasma half life, but sometimes it's much greater. So if the tissue half life of Topamax is at all greater than the plasma half life, decreasing the dose by half may result in a decrease of even less than 25% in your system for the first day, and that would explain why you were still wiped out after cutting your dose in half.

Nevertheless, it should be easy to get back to where you were when the 12.5 mg dose was tolerable and still effective at relieving pain. You've skipped one dose of Topamax already; that's a good start. This morning, did you feel worse than you used to feel when you were taking 12.5 mg on a regular basis? If so, skip another night. As soon as you have a morning where you feel no more exhausted or sleepy than you originally did on the 12.5 mg dose, you should resume that dose in the evening, and you'll be back where you were.

As for going back up to 25 mg., if you reach a point where you no longer feel any side effects on a nightly dose of 12.5 mg., then it's reasonable to try 25 mg. If that's still way too much (which is somewhat unlikely), you can try 3/4 of a tablet (18.75 mg.), or you can alternate between 12.5 and 25 mg. Or you can go back to 12.5 mg. for a little longer By using these strategies, sometimes in combination, you can adjust your dose to virtually any level. For example, the smallest dose that levothyroxine comes in is 25 mcg., but that was a bit too much for me. By taking a full tablet and then 3/4 of a tablet on alternate days, I was able to get an average dose of 22 mcgs., which was just right.
This one woman on the fibro page said she was on 200 mg a day and felt no effect! WHAT?

Your body gradually adjusts to the drug, and the benefits gradually disappear when this happens, which is why the dose escalation is necessary. The neurons of the woman you referred to were actually receiving much less of an effect of the Topamax than yours were. There comes a point, though, when the body can no longer decrease its sensitivity to Topamax, and that's the stable dose.
I'd give anything to wake up chipper and actually feel awake. Like, skippity do da...skippity day...my oh my what a wonderful day. Instead I lay there like a dead fish.

We should be able to get you swimming again pretty soon. :)
 

Misfit Toy

Senior Member
Messages
4,178
Location
USA
@zzz are you a biochemist or a doctor? Really, how do you memorize all of this? It all makes sense to you and even though it makes sense to me, I would only remember it truly if I studied it and had to memorize it.

Well, I didn't take it last night, but as usual with me, nothing is easy or non complicated. I am ovulating...sorry for TMI, but when this happens, my pain escalates and sometimes fatigue, sometimes....

Since stopping....tonight will be the 2nd night without, I am still zonked, but not as bad. I was able to create jewelry again, which I am grateful for since I lost all creativity on T. However, my sleep is so whacked that I slept from 7-9 pm and now I am somewhat awake and in AWFUL pain and now have a fentanyl patch.

I am wondering if the pain with me is from going off the T or the ovulation or both.

Either way, I could not go on like that.

ZZZ, I am not so sure I could take 25 mg of Topamax again. I was pretty stupified on it. Will see, but that drug for me, is a doozy. It was almost like being poisoned. Like someone was putting something in my soup everyday and after taking the soup I would quietly just fade into the background and either push myself because I had no choice or lay down and sleep for hours.

Topamax is a good drug for knocking someone out if they are bothering you. Sort of like Belladonna! I know, sounds hilarious or scary, but if ever there is a boyfriend in my life who just won't shut up, I am slipping him this into his wine and he'll hopefully be out in no time flat.

Will go back to 12.5 mg in a few days....thank you, beaming light.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Such a small pill causing me to be so zombified. This one woman on the fibro page said she was on 200 mg a day and felt no effect! WHAT?
I wonder if we have a problem with our blood-brain barrier or similar which is causing drugs to make it into our central nervous system. Usually it keeps most things out, so maybe that would explain why we have such strong reactions to even small doses.
 

Misfit Toy

Senior Member
Messages
4,178
Location
USA
Sometimes I wonder if it's because my liver isn't working right. I am a Phase II problem. I don't process things properly. The doctor called the company that did this test and they said it can't really be fixed. That milk thistle can help, but it's a genetic situation.

It gets better, I found out today I have to have a biopsy of a nodule on my thyroid. I have 3 nodules, but one in particular is rather large. So, biopsy needed.

I have been crying lately. I am really tired and just sad. In a lot of pain physically. It's just sad. How did I go from CFS to all of these diagnoses in one year and do I even have CFS? I don't even know anymore. I guess it doesn't matter, but it does to me for some reason. I'm trying to understand something that is not understandable.

We all thing we have control, or clearly WE don't, but even we still think we have some degree of control and then you realize there are some things that will never completely make sense to us.

No one that I know of in my family has or had any type of immune disorder or rheumatoid problem. Everyone DIES of cancer. My family is loaded with it and I bet if I took the test, I would come back positive for BRCA. My dad, sister, both grandparents, 2 aunts and 2 cousins died of cancer...HELLO! But Sjogrens, CVID, Celiac...nope. No one that I know of...so it must go back a ways.

Anyway, I am not the only one here suffering and certainly not the worst and I am sorry for all of us that are going through this SHIT. This health nightmare or monkey that is on our backs.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
@Misfit Toy I'm so sorry for all that you are going through and I suspect I may have a similar liver issue in the sense that I respond to tiny micro doses of meds and can rarely tolerate the standard doses that a normal adult would take.

Hopefully the thyroid biopsy will be quick and easy and will give some answers. I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's (autoimmune thyroid) in Oct 2013 so might be able to help if your diagnosis turns out to be similar.

When you asked if it matters if you have ME/CFS vs. another diagnosis, I think it does matter b/c the more your doctors know, the more they can hone in on the proper treatment for you. I know there is a lot of guesswork with these diseases but I am glad you are trying to get answers and it does matter.

I am so sorry about all the losses in your family to cancer and for all that you have been through. I can relate to no one else in your family having this illness and I am in that same boat. I must have different genetics than the rest of my family... or very bad luck!

I continue to pray for you on the prayer tree that you will find healing and peace. Also I can't remember if I told you, but I looked at your website and your jewelry is beautiful and you are very talented.
 

Misfit Toy

Senior Member
Messages
4,178
Location
USA
@Gingergrrl -thank you. I also have Hashimoto's. I have to look that one up again. I have been usually low in TSH but then a few times I ran into it being almost Grave's disease. It's all over.

Anyway, thank you for your words of solace and understanding. I have been praying for all of us. We are, it seems, such a small group here that participates. I am on other sites for other illnesses and I can't believe how many people there are. I can't remember any of them, or many. But on here, I feel lucky enough to know people, their names and their stories.
 

zzz

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Oregon
@Misfit Toy, once again I am really sorry to hear your news! I've been through a milder form of this, where I repeatedly seem to have one aspect of this illness under control, and then something else comes at me right out of the blue. And the pain isn't just pain; it warps your perception of everything, making everything look even worse.

We need to get you better here. It can be done.
Sometimes I wonder if it's because my liver isn't working right. I am a Phase II problem. I don't process things properly. The doctor called the company that did this test and they said it can't really be fixed. That milk thistle can help, but it's a genetic situation.

There are six pathways in Phase II liver detoxification. Do you know which ones aren't working for you, or can you find out? This information can be very useful.
I have been crying lately. I am really tired and just sad. In a lot of pain physically.

The first thing to do is to make sure that you're doing as much for the pain as possible, as that has such a big impact on how you feel. Have you restarted the Topamax at the 12.5 mg level? If not, it's completely safe to do so by now - you should get exactly the same effects as when you first started at that dose.

What about the ketamine? At one point, that was doing you a lot of good. If it stopped working, taking time off from it may have allowed your body to reset, so that you can use it occasionally now.

There are various other things that can be done for severe pain; I'll get to them in a PM that I'll send you (finally) later tonight.
How did I go from CFS to all of these diagnoses in one year and do I even have CFS? I don't even know anymore. I guess it doesn't matter, but it does to me for some reason. I'm trying to understand something that is not understandable.

There's the standard medical view that there's CFS, and then, possibly related to it, there are all these other illnesses which for unknown reasons are piling onto each other, leaving an absolute mess.

But there's no big picture here. I can understand why this matters to you. If this is just all happening for obscure reasons that are impossible to fathom, then how can you hope to understand everything well enough to treat it?

A big picture view would allow everything (or almost everything) to be treated as a single illness, with a single treatment plan that covered it all. In this post, I described how Dr. Goldstein created the field of neurosomatic medicine in order to deal with this situation. I gave an example of a woman who was being treated by Dr. Goldstein for CFS, and not only did he relieve her of all her CFS symptoms, but the same treatment also cured her of lupus, which Dr. Goldstein was not expecting. But as Dr. Goldstein's development of the field of neurosomatic medicine deepened, he saw more and more how different illnesses were what he called neurosomatic disorders. From his point of view, you have a neurosomatic disorder, which is manifesting in the form of these various illnesses. The liver problem, being genetic, would be outside this model. But you've had that liver problem all your life, and you certainly were a lot healthier than this in the past. So there's quite a bit that can be done using neurosomatic medicine here.

In various places, I've quoted Dr. Goldstein in reporting huge success with his work. But what about me? Starting last summer, I read all 700 pages of his two most recent books, which contain everything you need to know to use his treatments. In August, I started on his protocol. As I am not a doctor and do not have access to the supplies or knowledge that Dr. Goldstein did, I've had to take this protocol very slowly. Nevertheless, it has worked impressively for me. For example, increasing sensitivity to medications over time is a common problem in ME/CFS, and one that I had particularly bad; at various points, I've had to stop taking perfectly good medicines because I became too sensitive to them. I eventually lost the ability to take any antibiotics. In one of his books, Dr. Goldstein mentions, almost in passing, what the cause of this is, and what an effective treatment is. This is one of the first things I starting trying in August. For a long time, it seemed as if I were becoming less sensitive to medication side effects, but it was hard to tell. Finally, yesterday I tried taking NT factor, which I had found great for energy, and which I had used every day until I had a major crash four years ago that left me unable to tolerate it, along with virtually all energizing medications. Yesterday, for the first time since this crash, I was able to take NT factor with no ill effects. And yes, it gave me energy.

Another example is sleep reversal, which is a common malady among people here. By this summer, it was so bad for me that I was typically going to bed at 9 a.m. and getting up at 5 p.m. Then, in September, I added another medication from Dr. Goldstein's protocol to what I was taking, and my sleep reversal vanished literally overnight. Instead of going to bed at 9 a.m., I was getting up at 9 a.m.

These are just a couple of examples, but due to their uniqueness, I think they illustrate the power of Dr. Goldstein's methods well. I'll have more to tell you in that PM.

Going backwards a bit...
@zzz are you a biochemist or a doctor?

I am neither.
Really, how do you memorize all of this?

Necessity. It also helps that I have a good memory. Not as good as before, but still quite useful. Related to that, I should mention that taurine is very helpful for the memory problems that most of us experience. I take 1000 mg of taurine 3x per day.
I wonder if we have a problem with our blood-brain barrier or similar which is causing drugs to make it into our central nervous system. Usually it keeps most things out, so maybe that would explain why we have such strong reactions to even small doses.

It appears that many of us do have a leaky BBB, which often goes hand in hand with a leaky gut. We just leak all over. This definitely can and does cause problems. But that wouldn't explain @Misfit Toy's problem with Topamax, as Topamax is designed to easily cross the blood brain barrier, since it must do so in order to work.

Instead, a lot of problems with drugs that act in the brain appear to be due to receptor hypersensitivity, specifically hypersensitivity of the NMDA receptor. This hypersensitivity has been posited by many ME/CFS specialists, including Drs. Goldstein and Cheney, Dr. Martin Pall, and Rich vanK. There are probably others as well.
@Misfit Toy I'm so sorry for all that you are going through and I suspect I may have a similar liver issue in the sense that I respond to tiny micro doses of meds and can rarely tolerate the standard doses that a normal adult would take.

I also used to think that this was a liver issue for me too, but over time, the evidence for its being a receptor hypersensitivity issue became overwhelming for me. I suspect that that's what you have too, as it's extremely common among PWME. Dr. Goldstein believes that this hypersensitivity is at the heart of all neurosomatic disorders.
I am on other sites for other illnesses and I can't believe how many people there are. I can't remember any of them, or many. But on here, I feel lucky enough to know people, their names and their stories.

Yes, it's good to remember that. Recalling our good fortune in finding others on this strange path can be very consoling at times. Whenever we recall what we have to be grateful for, that helps. @Misfit Toy, you have my best wishes for your recovery as always. And I will get that PM to you tonight.
 
Last edited:

Misfit Toy

Senior Member
Messages
4,178
Location
USA
@zzz , no worries. I know we all are ill and doing our best. Thank you. Yes, I really don't feel so alone due to PR and so many sites. Someone is always reaching out. I may not talk to people on the phone everyday, but I have to say, I rarely feel alone anymore. Someone is always emailing or texting or just saying "hi" or I am friends with other PR folks on FB and it's really nice.

I am glad for PR. Very!
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
Another example is sleep reversal, which is a common malady among people here. By this summer, it was so bad for me that I was typically going to bed at 9 a.m. and getting up at 5 p.m. Then, in September, I added another medication from Dr. Goldstein's protocol to what I was taking, and my sleep reversal vanished literally overnight. Instead of going to bed at 9 a.m., I was getting up at 9 a.m.

What supplement would that be? (I've got delayed-type insomnia, not total sleep reversal, but thought I'd ask!)
 

zzz

Senior Member
Messages
675
Location
Oregon
What supplement would that be? (I've got delayed-type insomnia, not total sleep reversal, but thought I'd ask!)

The drug is chlorzoxazone (Parafon Forte), which is available by prescription only in the U.S. In Canada, there's a half-dose version of it that's available OTC.

But the chlorzoxazone alone is unlikely to fix sleep reversal, or delayed sleep phase disorder. If it did, everyone would know about it. Dr. Goldstein's protocol is customized for each person differently. For me, chlorzoxazone did the trick, probably along with the other medications from his protocol that I was taking or had taken.

At a couple of points in Tuning the Brain, Dr. Goldstein goes into great detail about how circadian rhythms work in the brain, and how delayed sleep phase disorder appears to work. Based on the way these processes work, he says that there is one drug that in theory should fix this problem, and that drug is... Topamax! :wide-eyed: But then he adds that he's never seen Topamax succeed in doing this.

Topamax seemed like a good drug, though, and Dr. Goldstein recommends it for other reasons. I took it at the 12.5 mg dose, found it helpful, and would probably still be taking it if it weren't for the fact that after a few days, it made my tinnitus worse. (This is actually a rather rare effect for Topamax.) So I stopped the Topamax, and a couple of days later started the chlorzoxazone. The first day I started the chlorzoxazone, my sleep patterns changed dramatically. But I've always wondered if the four days of Topamax might have had something to do with it too.

Dr. Goldstein also said that although he couldn't find a specific drug to fix sleep problems, when he found the right drug or combination of drugs to alleviate all ME/CFS symptoms in a person, the sleep problems went away with them.

@CFS_for_19_years, if you're interested in knowing more about or trying out Dr. Goldstein's protocol, please send me a PM. I've already taken up enough of @Misfit Toy's thread with this topic, and also as I mentioned, the protocol has to be customized for each person individually.

@Gingergrrl, you had asked me in what context I was taking the chlorzoxazone, so this post should answer that question.

@Misfit Toy, I realized that my previous post here was insanely long and ridiculously detailed, so I've edited it down to make it a bit more readable. You've also asked the question in a couple of places of how do you know whether you have CFS considering all the other diagnoses you have. The easiest way to tell is if you get PEM when you overdo it. None of your other illnesses are characterized by PEM, and it's the easiest way to differentiate between CFS and something else.
 
Last edited:

PNR2008

Senior Member
Messages
613
Location
OH USA
@Misfit Toy, I have to say without a doubt that Topamax was the worst drug I ever experienced. Dr. Goldstein never recommended it to me, maybe because although my right brain showed CFS/ME involvement, the left side had a hereditary focus on the SPECT scan.

I took Topamax for about 6 weeks and every time I complained to the doctor who prescribed it, he said to take more, then he quit taking my calls for help getting off it, so as usual I had to do it myself.

My symptoms were zombie-like also but with an excitability that made me crazy. I was dragging myself around the block with my dog to keep moving while feeling disorientated. I knew my dog would get me home. The few times my mind cleared I kept a calendar of the medications I took while weaning off Topamax. It took about 4-6 weeks but I got off it and to chance the raised eyebrows, I mainly did it with Klonopin, taking more than usual when I had to, then lowering that dose until I was at my regular dose of 0.5m per day.

Everybody is different, there is no fix-all. We must use our expertise and experience to keep on an even keel. Of course trying something new changes that sometimes for the good sometime for the bad, yet I know we keep trying.
It was a very low point in my 26 years of suffering with CFS/ME but I came through it, dumped the doctor and kept a close eye on any new drugs or over-confident doctors.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
The drug is chlorzoxazone (Parafon Forte), which is available by prescription only in the U.S. In Canada, there's a half-dose version of it that's available OTC.

@Gingergrrl, you had asked me in what context I was taking the chlorzoxazone, so this post should answer that question.

@zzz Thanks and I was just curious although I do not have any sleep reversal issues. My used Goldstein books arrived from Amazon yesterday (Betrayal of the Brain & the patient companion guide.) I have not looked at them yet but plan to do so soon. I never blindly take any meds but I am very curious to learn about his thought process and what types of interventions he did for ME/CFS since he is regarded as a genius and maverick by so many and seems to have been ahead of his time. If anything sounds like it could be of value to me, I will discuss it with my own doctor. Thanks again!
 

Misfit Toy

Senior Member
Messages
4,178
Location
USA
@zzz Well than I have CFS. I overdo and I pay. But...so do other illnesses. So, there's something that is interesting. Those with CVID, Fibro and Sjogrens all talk about this, not just CFS. So...is that a true answer? I think in all honesty, most people that are sick, including those with Lupus or MS, if they overdo, they pay for it. Right? I happen to know these people. So, do they have CFS or is it just their disease?

BTW, I am back on Topamax again, but a super low dose. 6.25 and sometimes higher. Let me tell you, this tuff knocks me out. That's why I take it. It puts me to sleep in less than 15 minutes after taking it. And, I am not a zombie the next day like with the 25 mg. BTW, Z, I will get back to you. Right now I am reading a book on Sjogrens. So trying to learn Goldstein may throw me off or overwhelm me because this book is so detailed and really scientific. But, out of all that I have Sjogrens makes more sense to me than any disease...even CFS. CFS comes into play because of the exhaustion and adrenal stuff, but they have extreme exhaustion, also. To the point that they are put on Provigil for their exhaustion, which I will not do!
 

brenda

Senior Member
Messages
2,270
Location
UK
@Misfit Toy

I would play safe and say that you have chemical sensitivity (which a lot of cfs'ers have anyway). Here are some guidelines which you could print out and take with you:

"DRUG REACTIONS are very common in chemically sensitive patients. Observe for symptoms such as spastic muscles, pulling parathesias, hyperesthesia or hypoesthesia, and jitteriness. Also, observe for local swelling, hives, syncope, hyperventilation, seizures, asthma, severe anaphylaxis, site inflammation, severe fatigue, increased sensitivities.

0.2 mEq/kg of magnesium over a 4 hour period daily may relieve spasms.

PRE-OP MEDICATIONS

No oral medication if possible. Avoid antihistamines and steroids if possible. Benadryl or an injection of 0.4 to 0.6 ml of IM atropine may be used to prevent excess secretions. Also, Atarax is usually safe. Usually, atropine or morphine-demerol compounds are sufficient for pain control. To alkalinize stomach contents to reduce problems with aspiration pneumonitis, use Alka Seltzer in gold foil (without aspirin).For intravenous fluids, use IV 0.45 normal saline in glass bottles, not plastic . Soft plastics such as those used for IV drips and blood bags contain phthalates, which include many toxic chemicals such as hormone disrupters. These chemicals leach into the IV solution and can cause reactions in the senstive person. Glass bottled 45 NS available from Merit Pharmaceuticals, 800-696-3748. If dextrose or Ringer's solution is used, please observe for a reaction due to its corn content. For fructose and invert sugars, contact company beforehand to check formulations and sources.

ANESTHESIA

Do not test anesthetic drugs before use. Use local anesthetics, such as preservative-free and epinephrine-free xylocaine or carbocaine whenever possible. No halogenated hydrocarbons (Fluothane, Ethrane, Penthrane). The chemically sensitive patient can get dramatically worse with gas anesthetics. If recovery does occur, can take days to return to normal state. Inhaled anesthetic is avoided if at all possible since the fluorinated hydrocarbons and nitrous oxide are known to be immunosuppressants. If required, nitrous oxide only in as limited levels as possible.

Check all drugs for preservatives. The basis for anesthesia that works well is: 1. The patient inhales 100% oxygen for 5 minutes

2. Bolus of sodium pentothal or other short-acting barbiturate is used for induction.

3. Followed by curare (a long-acting morphine compound) and a long-acting scopolamine compound. Succinyl choline chloride (Anectine) may also be used to paralyze. Sublimaze and Innovar can be used to obliterate memory. Sodium pentathol, Versed, Phentanyl (long acting opiod) are recommended drugs for induction and maintenance of anethsesia. For shorter procedures, the patient may use the Brevitol drip. Diprovan is recommended for induction and/or regional anesthesia.

SURGERY

Do not use any dyes, as discussed prior to surgery. Safe sutures: Silk, Cotton, Gut-lamb. Avoid synthetics.

POST-SURGERY

Antibiotics given intravenously provoke fewer reactions than when given orally. In-line intravenous filters should be used for higher tolerances. Post-surgery, use TENS unit or acupuncture for pain control. Vicodan may be OK for pain.

RECOMMENDED LABWORK FOR SURGERY

CBC
Urinalysis
SMA 20
Liver function
T and B Lymphocyte function (may include function of cell-mediated immunity, blastogenesis, phagocytic index, and migratory inhibitory factor). If on 2nd or 3rd day post-op, patient has a sudden purulent drainage, check serum levels of opsonins.

REFERENCES:

Rea, William, MD, Chemical Sensitivity, Volume IV.
Recommendations also from Jeffry Anderson, MD.
See Green Guide #42 on hormone disrupters (888-ECO-INFO)."
http://www.ctaz.com/~bhima/hospital.htm
http://www.ctaz.com/~bhima/hospital.htm

http://www.immuneweb.org/articles/anesthetics.html



It says that it was written in 2007 and there may be some changes in the anesthetics used now so further research would be wise. Adrenaline/Epinephrine is a big no no for us.
 
Last edited: