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Have the results of Dr Chia's ME/CFS interferon treatment actually proven enterovirus causes ME/CFS?

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Hip, Apr 14, 2016.

  1. mrmichaelfreedmen

    mrmichaelfreedmen

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    Virii and Cancer cells produce Nagalase(research it) - this would cause a self perpetual infection. I believe this is true for EV and has also been mentioned by Dr Chia as one of the reasons oxymatrine only works in 50% of cases.

    I never visit these forums anymore. Good luck
     
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    (I think you may have posted your question on the wrong thread, so I am answering it on this thread.)



    Even with just 6 x 45 mg dihydroquercetin capsules a day (I used Swanson Russian Rejuvenator dihydroquercetin), I felt mentally overstimulated, which is unpleasant, so I stopped taking it.

    Interestingly, the closely-related compound quercetin also caused similar overstimulation when I tried it a few years back.

    I really want to get up to a dose of 1,000 mg of dihydroquercetin, so this overstimulation is a problem for me.

    I think the overstimulation may be due to the fact that quercetin, like caffeine, is an adenosine receptor antagonist, and I suspect that's how quercetin and DHQ produce their stimulatory effects. If I can block or counter this adenosine receptor antagonism, I may be able to prevent the overstimulation.
     
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  3. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Would you have a link or reference to where Dr Chia said that nagalase levels explain the success or failure of oxymatrine?
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
  4. mrmichaelfreedmen

    mrmichaelfreedmen

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    Regarding Nagalase:

    By disabling MAF, nagalase prevents macrophage activation for phagocytosis and antigen presentation, leading to immune suppression.

    Elevated nagalase is indicative of either tumor activity or an active viral load in the body. With suppressed macrophage activity, viruses can become highly active and create fatigue, low grade fevers, muscle aches, joint pains and continued immunosuppression. This is often an underlying cause of many chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia and Lyme disease.

    http://drklinghardt.com/what-is-nagalase-by-dr-nicol-giandomenico/

    It was both GSH deficiency and/or elevated Nagalase where he believes Oxymatrine fails 48% of the time. I can not find the specific link, however I think Patrick W. Calvin wrote this in regards to an appointment with Dr Chia??

    Nothing I have read has indicated that Oxymatrine alone will overcome elevated Nagalase levels.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
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  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I Google searched, but could not find anything on Patrick's blog about nagalase and oxymatrine. If you do come across the webpage where you read this, please post it, if you could.

    I was one of the 48% who got no benefits from oxymatrine, even though I have high titers to coxsackievirus B4 (I have an active ongoing infection to CVB4), and I am interested in why oxymatrine benefits some but not others.
     
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  6. jepps

    jepps Senior Member

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    Maybe it depends of the microbiome, and you have microbes, that neutralize the dosage oxymatrine you take. So increasing the dosage could improve the efficiency, to feed the microbes, and leave enough oxymatrine to do its job.

    Justin Sonnenburg describes in his book, that various reactions to medicaments depend on this fact. As each person has its own microbiome, dosages of the medicaments vary from person to person. One may respond to a tiny dosage, another needs a huge dosage. In every case part of the medicament feeds your microbiome, the rest is for you.
     
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  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    In case there may have been some bioavailability issues, I also tried taking pure oxymatrine powder transdermally, but still no effect in my case.
     
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  8. jstefl

    jstefl Senior Member

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    I was an early user of Oxymatrine. I started on White Tiger, and switched to Equilibrant several years later after it became available. After a year on Equilibrant, I gave up due to the expense and lack of progress.

    Two and a half years ago, I started on resistant starches. After six months of RS use, I again tried Equilibrant, and this time found that it made a difference in the way I feel. It is a noticeable, but not great improvement. I am happy with any improvement that I can get, so I will continue taking it.

    This may be a case that applies only to me. I was tested by Dr. Chia and ARUP many years ago, and I can't find any doctor that will repeat the tests, so I can't give you a measure of any changes that may have occurred. What I do notice is that I have less of a tired, brain fogged, headachy feeling while I am taking RS and Equilibrant.

    John
     
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  9. mrmichaelfreedmen

    mrmichaelfreedmen

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    @Hip

    Just did the Nagalase blood test, results in a couple weeks time. The outcome will be interesting. I believe there may be more then just one or two reasons why oxymatrine only works in 52% of patients Dr Chia has treated.

    600mg White tiger oxymatrine/day.
    2000mg Inosine/day. *The addition of 100mg/day Epivir this past week has done nothing apart from causing slight nausea and mild headaches.

    Will replace Epivir with Amantadeine in due time.


    @jstefl

    RS may be affecting the microbiome in a positive way and improving immunity in ways we do not fully understand yet??
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2016
  10. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    A bit off-topic, but still concerning enteroviruses. According to a recent Swedish CFS/ME blog post, 26 out of 27 patients tested at ArminLabs, Germany, reported that their results were positive for "active coxsackievirus infection" on a Swedish CFS/ME Facebook group.

    If this is a reliable test, it could become a new piece of evidence supporting the coupling between enteroviruses and CFS/ME, since so far any patient data on enteroviruses has mainly come from one source only (Dr. Chia), or at least I wasn't aware of any enterovirus statistics from European CFS/ME patients before this. Sadly Swedish healthcare doesn't have a test for enteroviruses, so these patients cannot get any official diagnosis or treatment either.
     
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  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Interesting, though I am not sure just how reliable the ArminLabs coxsackievirus test is. I'd like to see it validated using the coxsackievirus B neutralization tests used by Dr Chia and in other ME/CFS studies.

    By the way, there are numerous studies finding enterovirus in ME/CFS patients that date back as far as 1970. There is no other virus that has been so closely linked to ME/CFS, in terms of the sheer number of studies on enterovirus and ME/CFS.
     
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  12. actup

    actup Senior Member

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    Dr Ian Lipkin's world class microbe discovery project is all about enterovirus as well as 1000's of other potential pathogens. A tremendous bang for your buck donation. His microbiome results will be almost impossible to refute given his reputation and a lab with some of the most sophisticated equipment in the world (no exaggeration). The patient samples are ready for analysis but the nih has refused funding for completion of this project. It's cruel beyond words for a very sick poverty stricken patient population to have to fund research on their illness but that's the reality for now. Please donate: http://www.meaction.net/2016/08/10/ciis-mecfs-monster-study/
     
  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I am not sure whether the new VirCapSeq-VERT technique Prof Lipkin will use for detecting viruses in his study can detect chronic enterovirus infections in the blood of ME/CFS patients. With the previous methodology Lipkin used, high throughput sequencing, he said he was not able to detect chronic enterovirus infections in the blood of ME/CFS patients (but could detect them if a virally-infected tissue sample was used, rather than a blood sample).


    Evidence for an enterovirus association to ME/CFS has already been amply demonstrated in numerous studies conducted over the last 45 years.

    What we really need to understand is how and why enterovirus appears to be able to trigger ME/CFS in some people, but not in most others who catch the same enterovirus. For example, is ME/CFS only triggered when enterovirus breaches into the brain? Or when enterovirus breaks into and infects certain critical immune organs, such as the thymus or spleen?
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  14. actup

    actup Senior Member

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    @Hip most of these studies are older with small patient numbers and a lack of replication. All I'm saying is we need the completion of the microbediscovery project which is a well designed study run by a world class scientist in a world class lab. I expect the funding dam to break when Dr Lipkin's study results are published.

    Found this information on the microbediscovery.org site re: sensitivity of the VirCapSeq-VERT
    sequencing platform. A 100-10,000 fold increase in viral matches sounds impressive.

    Pathogen hunt
    VirCapSeq-VERT, is the Virome-Capture-Sequencing platform for Vertebrate viruses. This is powerful new technology invented by CII and hailed by Scientific American as one of the “world changing ideas” of 2015. It is a system to broadly screen for all viral infections in vertebrates including humans. This test has much greater sensitivity than the current standard molecular techniques, and increases viral matches from 100 to 10,000-fold compared with conventional high-throughput tests.

    This testing identifies any virus that has ever been found to be in a person – 1.7 million agents are reported to be tapped through this testing. This work would clearly increase the yield of viruses detected in people with ME/CFS.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    No, many of these original British ME/CFS studies were large, for example: 337 patients, 420 patients, 60 patients, 158 patients, 121 patients, 88 patients, 48 patients.

    And Dr Chia's research (on 165 patients) replicated these original British studies; but the British studies all replicated each other anyway.

    So no, these studies were not small, and there was lots of replication.



    Of course Prof Lipkin's new study will be very interesting; but we already have lots of evidence for enterovirus involvement in ME/CFS.
     
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  16. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    I had this when tested 2 years ago by Infectolab in Germany. This was when Armin S was the Director before setting up his own company. I believe the result was something like 1:1000 whereas my result was 1:10.000.

    Pam
     
  17. jepps

    jepps Senior Member

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    If healthy gut microbes regulate the nervs according to this study

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/neurophilosophy/2016/apr/05/gut-bacteria-brain-myelin

    Less healthy microbes in the gut could mean less protection of the nervs from pathogenic viruses. This could result in viral infection of the nervs: to much pathogenic viruses, less healthy microbes in the nervs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2016
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  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    It could be something like this, that tissue compartments like the brain and nervous system in some people are less protected or more vulnerable, allowing ME/CFS-associated viruses like enterovirus and EBV to break into and infect these tissue compartments.



    Dr Chia observed that giving immune-suppressing corticosteroid drugs (such as prednisone) to the patient during the initial acute enterovirus infection was a recipe for triggering ME/CFS. So it seems from Chia's observation that if there is some immunosuppression at the time you catch your acute viral infection, this may be a crucial factor that determines to whether you go on develop ME/CFS or not from the virus.

    See this thread: Corticosteroids (Steroids) Such as Prednisone Given During an Acute Viral Infection May Cause ME/CFS

    This may explain why stress has been reported as a factor associated with the onset of ME/CFS: stress raises cortisol, which then has an immunosuppressive effect. Dr Chia mentions this in a video interview here.

    But other factors might also be immunosuppressive, such as exposure to mold toxins or pesticides. So these factors, if they are present at the same time as the acute viral infection, may be a recipe for triggering ME/CFS.
     
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  19. mrmichaelfreedmen

    mrmichaelfreedmen

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    Some bacteria also produce Nagalase. I think this is where Dr Chia has found 7 days of Rifampin has made a huge difference in patient response to treatment. Some patients with Lyme have "turned a corner" after introducing this antibiotic to there protocol, some believe it has antibiofilm activity.
     
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  20. eljefe19

    eljefe19

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    So the typical length of a Rifampin cycle is 7 days? I've been taking Oxymatrine for several months now, using gcmaf to try and lower nagalese, didn't know of any other way to do this, but have been considering Rifampin for its synergy with Oxymatrine.

    In fact, my nagalese was the highest my doctor had ever seen, well over 3 iirc.
     
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