Review: 'Through the Shadowlands’ describes Julie Rehmeyer's ME/CFS Odyssey
I should note at the outset that this review is based on an audio version of the galleys and the epilogue from the finished work. Julie Rehmeyer sent me the final version as a PDF, but for some reason my text to voice software (Kurzweil) had issues with it. I understand that it is...
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Have the results of Dr Chia's ME/CFS interferon treatment actually proven enterovirus causes ME/CFS?

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by Hip, Apr 14, 2016.

  1. Skippa

    Skippa Anti-BS

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    I think it is more likely than EBV4 itself causing CFS without a common mediator... Eg WHY do EBV4 and other pathogens cause ME/CFS... What is the common link?
     
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    It's CVB4, not EBV4.

    I think you are missing the point of this, and not understanding the issues.
     
  3. Skippa

    Skippa Anti-BS

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    Sorry that was just a typo across my posts.

    Hey, take my input or leave it, it's not like we've got a lab to go test this out.
     
  4. Deltrus

    Deltrus Senior Member

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    Yeah I was just trying to poke holes in his logic, the only "hole" that I found was really unlikely.
     
  5. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    The immune system is the common link. I believe that if a persistent infection is antigenically stimulating enough and in the right locations then you will get ME or something resembling it.
     
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  6. Justin30

    Justin30 Senior Member

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    I want to make note of one key finding in the atudy above "They can cause encephalomyelitis" and what the name ME actualy is:

    It is besides the M the E stand for ENCEPHALOMYEILITIS:

    • Brain Encephalitis which produces damage and permanent sequalae
    • Mylietis permanent damage to the Central Nervous System through demylination
    I would like to highlight the information of poliomylietis and acute desiminating encephalomylietis:

    Both Diseases start and have similar presentations at onset:

    confusion, drowsiness, and even coma, fever, headache, unsteadiness and falling, visual blurring or double vision (occasionally)trouble swallowing, weakness of the arms or legs.

    This happens 1-3 weeks after the initial flu like illness and or years after polio. That initial flu can cause a host of symptoms swollen glands, headache, fever, and this list goes on.

    My point is that if you dig deep enough...all the symptoms of permanent CNS damage are present.

    This represents 25% or of people with CFS depending on the damage....at least from what I can see.

    If your control center is broken than how can anything work?

    Many try to say its this no its that....When argueably the top CFS Dr Daniel Patterson says in order for the best outcome treatment with IVIG and High dose antivirals is the key.......this is one of the treatments they both use for Poliomylietis and ADEM...

    Further if either PM or ADEM are not treated promptly then you have dysfunction even Dr Hyde and others found it with SPECT and PET scans....Damage

    Further encephalitis symtoms wax and wane for years, they can change constantly.

    You may think and have heard that these illnesses like PM and ADEM are super serious and life threatening and you get messed right from the get go but this not the case.

    Many have light versions at onset, and experienced physician has to do a spinal tap, MRI and must be trained on how to find the irregularities if they are not glaring at onset. You do not have to be in a coma to for them, the Drs to know that a CRP and ESR at onset way above normal is a problem.

    Many hospitals will rarely listen and do a proper work up as they have not been trained. The think Encephalitis and Encephalomylietis is rare......its BS

    The this with PM and ADEM is that they can be caused by any bacteria, virus or Vacine....thats right vaccine...

    Look at the list of causes:

    include influenza virus, enterovirus,measles,[17] mumps, rubella, varicella zoster,Epstein Barr virus, cytomegalovirus, herpes simplex virus, hepatitis A, and coxsackievirus; while the bacterial infections includeMycoplasma pneumoniae, Borrelia burgdorferi, Leptospira, and beta-hemolytic Streptococci.[18] The only vaccine proven to induce ADEM is the Semple form of the rabiesvaccine, but hepatitis B, pertussis, diphtheria, measles, mumps, rubella, pneumococcus,varicella, influenza, Japanese encephalitis, and polio vaccines have all been implicated

    Now I just want to note that everyone is impacted differently and not everyone will be a lost cause.

    I believe that dor true ME is staring people right in the face Encephomylietis by definition.

    As for CFS I believe now this includes everything under the sun.....including recoverable forms of encephalitis, autoimmunity, dietary seficiencies, SIBO, Lyme Encephalitis....etc.

    Just imagine the cost to governments and insurers to do proper workup and treatment from the get go....it would be astronomical if millions needed IVIG, plasmapharesis, cychlophosphamide and tests such as MRI, Spinal taps to include all viruses, bacteria, etc...and you wonder if there is a cover up?

    More will be revealed this is where my day in and day out studies have brought me so far....
     
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  7. RYO

    RYO Senior Member

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    I have heard an Egyptian drugmaker Pharco is developing low cost alternative to expensive Hep C treatments (such as Harvoni $80,000). It is combination of ravidasvir and sofosbuvir ($300). It would be interesting to find out whether this treatment has any effect on non cytolytic CBV4 infection.
     
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  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Have you seen this recent study which found the supplement dihydroquercetin (taxifolin) has a potent anti-CVB4 effect comparable to or exceeding that of ribavirin?

    I just recently found that I have high titers for CVB4 (my coxsackievirus B neutralization test results are here), so I am going to test out dihydroquercetin.
     
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  9. u&iraok

    u&iraok Senior Member

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    Are you going to take it orally? The study says: "DHQ was applied intraperitoneally at doses of 75 or 150 mg/kg/day once a day for 5 days postinfection." Would orally be effective? I've taken it orally before with Vitamin C because it's supposed to help your body recycle Vitamin C.
     
  10. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    The oral bioavailability of dihydroquercetin (DHQ) is very poor: this study found the oral bioavailability of DHQ is just 0.49%. So most of the DHQ you take orally will not be absorbed.

    The poor absorption of DHQ is most likely due to its poor water solubility. Poor water solubility usually corresponds to poor oral absorption.

    The water solubility of DHQ is less than 1 mg/ml, which means it is only very slightly soluble in water; however the DHQ solubility in ethanol is 61 mg/ml, which is quite soluble. Ref: 1

    So I may dissolve my DHQ in a small amount of say vodka (40% ethanol), and then take that orally, or apply this solution transdermally. I am initially aiming for a daily dose of around 200 mg DHQ (I will increase it later). So that amount should dissolve in around 5 ml of ethanol — say a tablespoon full of vodka.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2016
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  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Does anyone know if Dr Chia still uses ribavirin, and if not, know the reason why he stopped using it?

    If you look at Dr John Chia paper, he says that:
    So ribavirin seems to provide some reasonable benefits, provided you keep taking it. Dr Chia does mention in another paper that mild headaches and nausea were the most common side effects of ribavirin, but if you don't get those, it seems like a useful drug.
     
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  12. frederic83

    frederic83 Senior Member

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    Somebody knows what Dr Chia used to treat his patients with Epstein-Barr? Did he treat it?
     
  13. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    If you look at Dr Chia's published letter: Diverse Etiologies for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, he indicates he find around 3% of his patients have EBV-associated ME/CFS, and presumably he must use some treatment for those patients, but I don't know what treatment that is.
     
  14. frederic83

    frederic83 Senior Member

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    Thanks, I can read in the letter, tab. 1: response to Val or iv Cid therapy, cid for Cidofovir, val for valacyclovir.
     
  15. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Ah yes, I did not see that. (Brain fog makes you blind!).

    Dr Peterson uses cidofovir. It's quite a strong antiviral.
     
  16. wastwater

    wastwater Senior Member

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    Enterovirus might be reactivating due to immune dysregulation.
     
  17. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    I don't think reactivating is an accurate term though. Enteroviruses don't form episomes to hide in like herpes viruses nor do they integrate into DNA like a provirus. If enteroviruses do form a latency, it's of a type that has not really been described yet in mainstream medicine. These viruses are supposed to be cleared completely by the immune system.
     
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  18. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    That's true that enteroviruses don't create viral episomes or splice their viral DNA into the genome of the cell.

    However, I am not clear on this, but doesn't Dr John Chia believe that lytic enteroviral infections can reawaken from the enteroviral non-cytolytic dsRNA "seeds" that live inside quiescent cells as a chronic intracellular infection?

    Tam and Messner have shown that this persistent dsRNA infection contains the full enteroviral genome, so it seems likely this dsRNA could convert back to the normal lytic form, and start generating lytic viruses under the right circumstances.

    Or are the "seeds" that Dr Chia refers to just the starting point of a new non-cytolytic intracellular infection, rather than a new lytic infection? My guess is that these the intracellular dsRNA might act to seed both a new non-cytolytic and lytic infection, under the right circumstances.
     
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  19. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    I think we need to know a lot more about the nature of this dsRNA sitting in the cell. Is replication and/or translation still occurring? If it isn't, is just the presence of dsRNA alone antigenically stimulating enough to cause problems? My guess is that it is as there are several pattern recognition receptors in cells that detect dsRNA and trigger an innate immune response and activation of one of these receptors (TLR3) is supposed to be a potent inducer of interferon; this is the whole basis for Ampligen.
     
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  20. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Indeed. I really cannot understand why there is so little research on this, given that chronic enterovirus infections (and thus non-cytolytic enteroviruses) may be behind ME/CFS, type 1 diabetes, chronic myocarditis, dilated cardiomyopathy, ileocecal Crohn's disease (the most common form of Crohn's), and others.
     
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