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Hashimoto´s with no antibodies

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by andre79, Dec 23, 2014.

  1. andre79

    andre79 Senior Member

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    Hello all,

    I was wondering if is possible to have Hashimotos with no antibodies. Here is a list of my symptoms:

    During Onset:

    Night sweats / tremors / pain all over my body / numbness and tingling in arms and hands / fasciculations / nauseas and vomiting / fatigue (extenuating) / headaches / very weird movement inside my left eye/ dilated pupils /general swollen lymph nodes / tachycardia / dizziness / anxiety / memory loss / dry skin / diarrhea / lose my ability to speak coherently / insomnia / IBS / exacerbation of allergies / candida overgrowth / hair loss / and so on...

    I have gain around 15 pounds since onset despite the fact that i eat healthy (no gluten or dairy, low sugar), i have exercise intolerance though, so i only walk.

    Many doctors suspected i had hypothiroidism, but i have tested thyroid a ton of times and never got positive antibodies. My TSH goes up and down from 1.4 to 3.4, most of the time is 2.5.

    I had a thyroid tomography, and it showed well preserved and no sign of harm. So, no doctor is willing to treat me for hashimotos, because they say there`s no evidence i have it.

    The other thing that makes me wonder is that hashimotos runs in my family. My mom, my three aunts, and my cousin have positive antibodies and they are being treated. No one of them have severe symptoms like i do.

    Since my hepatologist thinks that is impossible that i get so severe symptoms from my liver problem, maybe i have something else, that is treatable, but how do i convince the doctors to put me on thyroid replacement?

    I forgot to add that i took iodine for a while and made me more hypo. That`s a sign of hashi, isn`t it?
     
  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Your symptoms sound like poisoning. What's your supplementation history? Dentistry? Medical interventions? Medicines taken? What is your liver problem? T3, free T3 and reverse T3 levels?

    But answering your questions, yes, I have already heard of Hashi's without antibodies.
     
  3. andre79

    andre79 Senior Member

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    Yes, i felt like i was poisoned, specially during the onset of the illness. Before onset i didn`t take any supplements, or medicines. I never got any surgery (except for a little cosmetic surgery in my face, I was injected a biopolimer in my chin but that was like 15 years ago and it never got me any trouble)

    During the onset, my T3 was high (TSH and T4 normal). Lately the values of T3 has come back to normal, and T4 and TSH remain the same, right in the middle of reference values.

    Also, i did several liver profiles during onset and they turned out normal. A few months ago my liver enzymes were high (I was doing coffee enemas) and my mythochondrial antibodies positive, so the doctor suspected PBC. I am waiting to get a liver biopsy to confirm.

    It's kind of weird that my body can produce mithochondrial antibodies but no thyroid antibodies. Sometimes i feel a little pain in my thyroid area.
     
  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Parathyroid investigation? Diet? Urine and saliva pH (keep pH paper at home)? Serum uric acid? minerals/electrolytes levels? Vitamin D?
     
  5. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member

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    What you describe does not sound to me like Hashimoto's or hypothyroidism of any cause really.
     
  6. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @andre79 - the short answer is, Yes, I think you can have some kind of auto-immune thyroid problem w/o producing antibodies.... I definitely think this is true for me (gluten sensitivity, no thyroid probs indicated in 23andme - but lots of autoimmune potential, and I have no tolerance for iodine). With that said, I do think there's more to investigate. Best of luck.
     
  7. andre79

    andre79 Senior Member

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    Wow, you are good dear! As a matter of fact I have Hyperparathyroidism (secundary to malabsorption syndrome) but that is unlikely to be the cause of my symptoms since my calcium is low, no high. Low Vitamin D (31 even though i have supplemented for two years and I take plenty of sun and it doesn`t raise) Uric acid normal, electrolytes normal.

    By the way, how come I have malabsortion and i am still overweight? sigh.

    Dr @Jonathan Edwards if a patient comes to your consult and it shows so different and severe symptoms, what would you suspect? I appreciate your opinion, because I have discovered several health conditions (Hyperparathyroidism, possible PBC) but none of them explain my symptoms. So I am hopeless without treatment.

    @ebethc I have read from differente patients and even some specialists doctors that it is possible to have Hashimoto without antibodies. One of them, an endocrine even told me that at the beginning of Hashimotos, the symptoms could be of Hyperthyroidism and no hypo. Maybe i should try a therapeutic trial of thyroid hormone to see what happens.
     
    ebethc likes this.
  8. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member

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    The problem is that very often the more symptoms the more difficult it is to be sure what is wrong. I would advise against trying out treatments on the off chance that they might help. Otherwise I am not in a position to advise without actually going through the details in a medical interview so I should not give more detailed advice.
     
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  9. andre79

    andre79 Senior Member

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    For all of us that are apparently intolerants to iodine, this could be interesting:

    http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/library/randrep/pb_paper/mr1018.2.chap10.html

    So, we take iodine and have all sorts of symptoms and of course we blame the iodine. But what could happen is that iodine helps to detox your body from the Bromide deposits, that builds in our bodies when we lack of iodine. As you know enough levels of iodine are essential for our thyroid work normally.

    And what are the symptoms of Bromide intoxication?

    "Bromide intoxication, from prolonged consumption of excessive doses of bromide, may cause protean symptoms, particularly psychiatric, cognitive, neurological, and dermatologic. Symptoms may be incorrectly perceived as "psychosomatic" (Pelckmans, Verdickt, et al., 1983), or may lead falsely to other diagnoses.
    Psychiatric symptoms may include, in the earlier stages, disinhibition, self-neglect, fatigue, sluggishness, impairment of memory and concentration, irritability or emotional instability, and depression. Symptoms of more advanced disease may include confusion but occasionally schizophrenic-like psychotic behavior or hallucinations in clear consciousness. Behavior may become violent, especially at night. There may be severe auditory or visual hallucinations, or both. There may be clouding of consciousness, including stupor and coma (Horowitz, 1997; Fried and Malek-Ahmadi, 1975; Wacks, Oster, et al., 1990; Carney, 1973).

    Neurological abnormalities of "all kinds" occur, including headache, tremor, slurred speech, spontaneous movements, incoordination, ataxia (abnormal gait), tendon reflex changes (increased or decreased reflexes), and extensor plantar responses (abnormal reflexes that signify "upper motor neuron" disease, disease in the brain or spinal cord that affects nerve signaling to the muscles) (Horowitz, 1997; Fried and Malek-Ahmadi, 1975; Wacks, Oster, et al., 1990; Carney, 1973). Vision changes have included decreased visual acuity often in conjunction with enlarged and poorly reacting pupils; disturbances of color perception, photophobia (abnormal sensitivity to light), micropsia and macropsia (perception of things as smaller or larger than they are), blurring of vision, and the quite characteristic mydriasis (enlarged pupils) (Levin, 1960; Kunze, 1976).

    EEG: Generalized slowing of the EEG has been reported (Carney, 1973).

    Dermatologic: Some patients will develop "bromoderma," an acne-like "papular" (raised) eruption of the face and hands (Horowitz, 1997; Wacks, Oster, et al., 1990); a "macular" (nonraised) rash may also be seen (Carney, 1973). In one case series, four of six bromism patients had abnormal pigmentation, usually of the sun-exposed areas (Carney, 1973).

    Acute bromism is seldom seen because the bromide ion is irritating to the GI tract and produces vomiting before sufficient blood levels can be reached to cause bromism from short-term use. However, chronic bromism may develop--bromide is excreted slowly through the kidney, giving it the opportunity to build up in the body through ongoing ingestion (Morgan and Weaver, 1969)."

    I don't know about you but these symptoms sound awfully familiar to me, including more specific symptoms like enlarged pupils and the fact that during onset i had very strong psychiatric and neurological symptoms. Other fact that calls my attention is that, as soon as I changed my diet to non processed food, organic, no gluten,my brain started to heal.

    Last night i took a small dosis of iodine, and inmediately i started to feel uneasy, with headaches, nauseas, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. I was scared to feel that, and started researching again, and turns out that iodine causes the Bromide to go directly to the blood stream and generates the symptoms. Large dosis of iodine are supposed to help to totally detox our bodies, but of course the detox action is not pleasent at all. Maybe I am over symplifying the case, but I think is worth to search a little bit about Bromide and its effects on our bodies.

    They are even linking the Bromide Intoxication to the PGW syndrome.
     
  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    There is a salt load protocol for bromide detox.
     
  11. andre79

    andre79 Senior Member

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    I was just reading about it. It seems pretty harmless to drink 1/4 tsp of salt with plenty of water. Maybe i will try it.

    Here is a list of symptoms of Bromide intoxication, last night (when i didn't even knew that Bromide existed) I had many of them, please notice that i just found these today, so it's not like i am auto suggesting myself.

    http://www.breastcancerchoices.org/bromidedetoxsymptomsandstrategies.html


    • Iodine-related bromide symptoms may include but are not limited to:

    • eye lid twitching
      foot twitching
      tingling in hands or feet
      dark thoughts (e.g., there is no reason to live)
      depression (e.g., there is no reason to get out of bed)
      anxiety
      emotionality
      mouth and tongue sores and cuts or "sore mouth"
      "different" acne,"bromide acne," "acne-like eruptions" without "coniform." (Some iodine
      users found zinc helps bromide acne.)
      skin "cuts"
      hair loss
      brain fog
      leg and hip ache (feels like arthritis)
      rash (bromaderma)
      metallic taste
      sinus ache
      cherry angiomas
      runny nose
      headache
      sedation
      lethargy
      odd swallowing sensation (reported in old medical literature as "swollen glottis")
      body odor (bromos is Greek for stench)
      unusual urine odor
      dry mouth
      ureteral spasm, frequent urination (mistaken for urinary infection)
      diarrhea
      constipation
      vision changes
      irritability
      increased salivation
      dream changes
      hormone changes
      kidney pain
      breast tenderness (transient symptom reported to resolve)
     
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  12. jann1033

    jann1033 Senior Member

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    I have hashimotos and my endocrinologist told me it can fluctuate between high and low with it
    I noticed you dont eat gluten. Interestingly i just saw an article about how not eating gluten is causing problems in those who do not actually have a gluten intolerance. I of course dont remember the details but If that is the case with you( not dxed by dr., just your choice) youmay want to check that out.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2015
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  13. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Please supply more details when you can!
     
  14. andre79

    andre79 Senior Member

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    Thank you for your reply, but what can fluctuate? The antibodies?

    I have never been diagnosed with coeliac illness, but there are several things that point in that direction. First, my ferritin in very low, my parathyroids is high and I have hip osteopenia. Everytime i ate gluten I would end up with stomach ache, diarrhea and very strong neurological symptoms

    What I don't quite understand is why quitting gluten without a proven intolerance could bring you problems. Is there a special nutrient in gluten that cannot be found in other foods? It would be interesting to know if gluten is truly necessary, at least for healthy people. I know many healthy people doing gluten free diets to lose weight, it could cause them problems in the future? I am really interested in this point. Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2015
  15. jann1033

    jann1033 Senior Member

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    With Hasimotos your thyroid can fluctuation between hyper and hypo so it should be monitered.
    I can't find the article ( thought I shared it on facebook but didn't see it on my page). I remember it can change gut bacteria which they said could cause immune problems. Also many don't replace the fiber, vit b, foliate etc they miss from gluten products so they end up deficient. It wasn't just dealing with gluten but diet "myths" ie vegan is automatically healthier, gluten is bad, carbs are bad, ect. The major problem I think is people don't research what to replace when the drop a major food group. Unless you have a medical need, you don't benefit and can do harm. There was an interesting point with gluten/weight loss, in studies they found its not the gluten but the fact the gluten was contained in desserts, high caloric food, it was cutting the caloric food rather than the gluten that led to weight loss. No brainer there but it had nothing to due with cutting out gluten.
    It also brought out the danger of self dx with any condition. When they did a blind study of people who thought they were gluten intolerant, they found most had no problem unless they knew it was gluten, they ate the same gluten laded food that was labeled gluten free and were fine. Kind of like a placebo effect, it's hard to be objective when you already have a preconceived idea.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
  16. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Excuse me but that's a load of twaddle. For most people gluten products are just milled starch with artificial nutrients added, some of which are harmful to many people like folic acid. That sort of flour is not real food and everyone would be better off without it.
     
  17. jann1033

    jann1033 Senior Member

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    I assume you don't realize gluten is in whole wheat, barley ect? Your comment pretty much proves the point of people choosing to ignore sound nutrition due to fadish thinking
     

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