Severe ME Day of Understanding and Remembrance: Aug. 8, 2017
Determined to paper the Internet with articles about ME, Jody Smith brings some additional focus to Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis Day of Understanding and Remembrance on Aug. 8, 2017 ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

has anyone used MCT oil to get into ketosis?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by ebethc, Feb 19, 2017.

  1. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,214
    Likes:
    790
    I"ve read that mct oil can help get you into ketosis so you don't have to go on a no carb diet... I did the no carb diet many years ago, and missed vegetables.... I don't think a vegetable free diet is for me.... However, low-ish carb (paleo.. no grains, potatoes, beans) would be good...

    How much MCT oil per day do you take to get into ketosis? how long (ballpark) does it take?
     
  2. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,281
    Likes:
    45,821
    A no-carb diet has never been necessary to go into ketosis. Many find they need a 20g-50g carb per day diet to go into ketosis, however.

    I doubt that a form of coconut oil is capable of fundamentally altering biochemistry to the extent that ketosis would be possible in the 50g+ carb range. What's the source for the claims?
     
    barbc56 and arewenearlythereyet like this.
  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,607
    Likes:
    3,594
    Indeed a no-carb diet might be for felines only :cat:. For those with specific indication for this diet the amount of non starchy veggies to be ingested is practically unlimited.
    Trying keto/LC was a huge mistake for me. Did you get a complete hormonal panel? I think it is useful to know about levels of glucse and insulin (an assay of at least 2 hours) plus a comple te panel including thyroid and sex hormones (estradiol, estrone, testosterone, DHT, progesterone).
    Pursuing this diet was a huge mistake for me because I had normalized insulin/glucose issues just by going gluten free and especially because my estrogen has been below detectable leves for a long time (and the many drs I saw kept prescribing me progesterone). So anything that is progesterogenic, that accelerates estrogen breakdown, or inhibits aromatase (LCHF diet in a nutshell) is detriemental for me.

    I tried lowish carbs for almost 2 years and those were very fogged years. Having said that, if your issues are the opposite of mine, just dive in it!

    @jjxx
     
    ebethc likes this.
  4. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,281
    Likes:
    45,821
    arewenearlythereyet and barbc56 like this.
  5. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,607
    Likes:
    3,594
    That is enough for me since I am not interested in ketogenesis anyway :p
     
  6. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,214
    Likes:
    790

    I was reading the Norwegian Study, and some of the interpretations. From my understanding, the upshot was that the glucogenic path in the body's energy cycle is dysfunctional. It seems reasonable to say, if the glucogenic path is screwed up and we don't know how to fix it, then focus on the ketogenic path...Stoking the ketogenic path in the energy cycle (which is presumably healthy) could be a more productive if the end goal is creating more energy and burning more calories..

    I need to lose weight (gained during the phase of my tx when doctors said, Take anti-depressants for CFS... me: But I'm not depressed... Doctors said, Oh, you have a "somatic depression"...Now doctors say, You are sick b/c you are fat.. haha... digression over..) I don't have the energy to exercise as much as I need to in order to lose weight, so I'm trying to understand carbs & ketosis better... Carbs are a bit confusing: do you measure grams, glycemic index or glycemic load? However, If I just avoid lectins, then I'm not eating carb-y things anyway..So, questions on the carb thing, but nothing I can't figure out..

    Which brings me to MCT oil hypothesis: 1) help provide alternative fats so that fatty acids are not burned up as much (per Norwegian study) 2) help put my body into ketosis (per bulletproof)

     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  7. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,214
    Likes:
    790
    Interesting... I just had some blood tests, and it was all good... I tried very low carb/ketosis in the late 90s and I felt better... It was just so hard to keep up, and I didn't like or want to not eat vegetables! I don't think an atkins type plan is good for me personally, and not sustainable...

    Now that I understand a little better and there is more information available re low carb dieting, I want to try again... I think it's the right direction for me, based on how I felt energy-wise and brain-wise... I just couldn't digest all the protein... Now I've learned how to increase bile flow and it's easier to look up low carb veggies on the internet (and other info) ..
     
  8. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,478
    Likes:
    7,571
    Not sure about that one? Mainly because If you consume carbs your body will utilise them (however dysfunctionally). I don't think fatty acid consumption by type actually prevents utilising sugars for energy if they are available in sufficient quantity? It's more a case of how much energy your body needs and what fuel the body has available to make that energy that decides what pathway it will use? It all comes back to balance for me. I think there is a lot of confusion in that people like to deal in absolutes ( like "I'm in ketosis") when actually the biochemistry is always a bit more complex.

    This sounds too good to be true and most of the time when I hear stories like this it tends to be More complicated than portrayed. Scientists often tell a story of things they think they want people to hear or exaggerate small findings, mainly to get extra funding for further research. Perhaps this is one of those occasions?

    To stay "in ketosis" I had to be eating under 60g carbs. It didn't matter what fats I ate? I changed this to 100-150g carbs since I wanted a more varied diet and I was concerned that I was missing out on some key nutrients. I feel better with lower carbs in terms of gi and headaches etc but it didn't really give me a lot more energy either in ketosis or lower carbs. I have always assumed you could metabolise fats carbs and proteins simultaneously and what you ate was more about efficiency?

    I guess you just need to find out what works for you?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
    ebethc likes this.
  9. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,214
    Likes:
    790
    haha.. fair enough! a lot of pseudo-science in the whole paleo world, for sure... The problem is that scientific research is paid for by drug cos. or the government... since no drug company benefits from studying nutrition, there are few studies and certainly no meta-analyses (ideal) available for this type of info, and now that trump is in office, science is really screwed b/c if there's anything the thoughtpolice hate, it's actual facts...No more funding, for sure... Can you tell I'm not a doctor or an academic?

    so you can't wait for the perfect data set, but I am making a hypothesis based on the norwegian study... what do you think?
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  10. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,214
    Likes:
    790
    yes, I agree that less than 50g or so carbs is not the most nutrient dense diet... that's why I'm curious about mct to augment a, say, 100g carb diet

    yes, it seems to always boil down to n=1 ... ;-)
     
    arewenearlythereyet likes this.
  11. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,214
    Likes:
    790
  12. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,214
    Likes:
    790
    this is what I gathered from the Norwegian study, ie, if the glucogenic energy pathway is dysfunctional and we don't know how to fix it, then focus on firing up the ketogenic energy pathway:

    "I flipped a switch on my metabolism. I stopped relying so much on glucose for metabolism, and instead encouraged my liver to break down those dietary fats into ketones—a much “cleaner” energy source."
    https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...-chronic-fatigue-fibromyalgia-courtney-craig/
     
  13. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,351
    Likes:
    6,549
    Northcoast NSW, Australia
    I've found MCT oil to be a good addition. It seemed to help my endurance when I first started taking it. But now, when I've been under stress, my body hasn't wanted it. It only tests + for it on days when I'm very relaxed and not overheated. I've been on a low carb diet for a couple years. Don't know whether I'm in ketosis or not. But my body is now very reliant on healthy fats, particularly olives and macadamias these days.
     
    ebethc likes this.
  14. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,214
    Likes:
    790
    I took some caprylic acid I had from a while back... it seems to make my gut & head feel better, but subtle... we'll see
     
  15. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,281
    Likes:
    45,821
  16. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,214
    Likes:
    790
    this isn't a study, but it's exactly the lightbulb that went on when I read the norwegian study..

    Courtney Craig cured by Ketogenic Diet
    "I flipped a switch on my metabolism. I stopped relying so much on glucose for metabolism, and instead encouraged my liver to break down those dietary fats into ketones—a much “cleaner” energy source."
    https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2...-chronic-fatigue-fibromyalgia-courtney-craig/
     
  17. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

    Messages:
    536
    Likes:
    957
    Australia
    I spent some time on a ketogenic diet before, low carb was the way I tried to deal with SIBO before I started taking betaine HCL. At the time I bought a breath acetone metre (Ketonix) and there were long periods where I was reliably in the red with a fraction of an exhalation.

    I have also found that on a high fibre (non ketogenic) diet I can also produce enough butyrate (from fermentation) to go into the red, though less emphatically.

    My feeling at the time was that my best days were almost always high breath acetone days (so the more deeply ketogenic days).

    But I had issues with bile production, and other gut issues and seemed to need a high fibre and ketogenic diet and it just did not really seem to work.

    When I was using MCT oil my energy was pretty good, but my anxiety and POTS went through the roof. My concern about MCT oil (which I was using at about 40 - 60mls per day) is that it increases gut permeability. So I would certainly not use it if you had any issues with digestion.

    If you are going to do keto I would suggest looking at Terry Wahls' ketogenic diet because she has at least run it past nutritionists to ensure that it meets all nutritional RDAs and has used it both clinically and in research.

    I know that Myhill is now also recommending a paleo ketogenic diet and will soon be bringing out a book about that (she has information about this on her site).

    I can certainly see the logic of a ketogenic diet and will reconsider it when I have dealt with all signs of infections, but I think I will have to do it without MCT oil.


    So that is my answer to you question, but below is a bit of personal history to give a bit of my reasoning that may also be of some use (if only in explaining why I am not doing a ketogenic diet right now.)


    Like many people I seem to be only able to focus on one thing at a time. I tried a ketogenic diet again last year but found it impossible. I had to take supplementary bile, and I could not manage the higher lipid load needed for a ketogenic diet. So I decided that I had to put it off until I had sorted out bile production.

    One of the possible causes was parasites, so I got teated and it turned out I had b. hominis so in December I took triple therapy (antibiotics) to deal with it, now that I have retested I can say it was successful in killing off the b. hominis. I also am now producing bile (I have gone from having food coloured stools to stool coloured stools, and those stools are not fatty - I had an issue with fatty stools when I tried Wahls ketogenic paleo).

    But the antibiotics will take a while to recover from, and I have since been focusing on other infections after reading Hip's thread on nasopharyngitis I discovered that I had chronic nasopharyngitis. (Had an ENT consult.) So am doing my best to clear that up.

    I have also had chronic issues with tinea that my doctor was advising me to treat with tea tree oil, and which resisted such treatment for well over a year. On the idea that they could be the problem (focal infection) or just an unnecessary drain on my limited energy. I am also working on treating that (I am on oral nystatin now and trying a new ointment).

    And of course I need to repopulate my gut with plenty of probiotics. So I am kind of exhausted, and seem to have to too many other things to deal with at the moment

    But my expectation is that I will give a ketogenic diet a go in a couple of months or when I have sorted these things out.
     
    ebethc and Gondwanaland like this.
  18. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,214
    Likes:
    790
    @Richard7
    very interesting... similar story to mine, right down to the treatment resistant tinea, need for stomach acid (I've been taking ox bile w proteolytic enzymes) & tendency towards anxiety.. I can't get into ketosis again purely from deleting all carbs... I got some benefits, (one of the few things that cleared my head) but I never felt great either... I don't make enough stomach acid and I need veggies... I'm aiming for paleo/keto augmented w high quality MCT or caprylic acid

    I found some caprylic acid and have been taking that.. definitely stimulates some energy, and I can see how it would teeter over into anxiety, so low doses, for sure.... 40-60mls (3-4 tb) is a very high dose of MCT oil.. did you try stepping that down, to 1/2 teaspoon (2.5 mls)?

    How do you know that MCT causes gut permeability? this is alarming..
     
  19. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

    Messages:
    536
    Likes:
    957
    Australia
    ebethc likes this.
  20. Richard7

    Richard7 Senior Member

    Messages:
    536
    Likes:
    957
    Australia
    Its a while since I was taking lots of MCT oil, early 2015, but 40-60ml is an estimate and would have been about my highest level and I had it in two or three doses over the day with food as a salad dressing etc.

    I don't think I was ever as low as 2.5ml, the lowest was probably 10 - 15ml.
     
    ebethc likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page