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Has anyone tried Mickel Therapy or Reverse Therapy?

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by CBS64, Nov 26, 2011.

  1. CBS64

    CBS64

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    I just started flipping through a book called Recovery from CFS: 50 Personal Stories and have read stories by a couple of people who said they were cured by using Mickel Therapy. http://www.mickeltherapy.com/ (I think there's another similar process called Reverse Therapy.) I did a little checking online and have seen a couple of posts by people who've used it to no benefit. I'm wondering if anyone here has tried it?
     
  2. firefly

    firefly

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    I've tried Reverse Therapy and found it to be helpful, with reservations.

    I look at it this way. As far as mind-body medicine goes, it's the best I've found (and works well with yoga and meditation.) What drew me into it was reading about how John Eaton (the founder) started thinking along these lines when his wife was ill with a serious autoimmune disease, and found that the principles of RT were helpful for her.

    What bothers me about the way Reverse Therapy is presented now, is that it seems to single out CFS and Fybromyalgia as non-specific, stress-related illnesses. While I agree that stress plays a role (as it does in all diseases) I disagree with the political message this sends out and disagree with the idea that Reverse Therapy alone is able to cure it. That said, I still think it's entirely possible that, along with other interventions, it could play a big role in helping someone get past the tipping point towards greater health.

    It certainly has helped me in achieving a higher level of functionality than what I previously had.

    So, bottom line for me is, if you can adopt some of the principles and work with the practice of RT while not getting upset about its overall philosophy, I think it could be helpful.
     
  3. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    David Mickel is talented and empathic and I felt he helped me--there is an emotional underpinning and overlayering to all illness--it really helped me focus on what was actually happening in my life and made me realize I needed to leave my apartment and NY.
     
  4. baccarat

    baccarat Senior Member

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    Their site states
    "At Mickel Therapy, we can offer effective treatment for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Depression / Anxiety, E-Motions, Fibromyalgia, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, M.E (Myalgic Encephalomyelitis) and a range of other conditions."

    Effective treatment for CFS? they're a bunch of vultures in my mind.

    It may help destressing some and thrives probably like other proponents of psych therapy like CBT, on the fact that there are all sorts of underlying conditions in the CFS bin and such therapies may be helpful where depressed or others were "misdiagnosed" as having CFS.

    As far as I'm concerned, I feel nauseated.
     
  5. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    When I worked with him he said from the outset he did not expect to cure my lyme disease. However, by understanding his key concepts and keeping a journal the way he suggested (which was not easy for me as I tend to write endlessly detailed entries), I began to see very starkly what I had not seen before. I think it helped me move, which saved my life.

    There is an emotional underpinning to much disease as well as an emotional overlayering. I think it can help with this. I don't think he thinks he can "cure" chronic infections or at least never claimed to, to me.

    You might be surprised how emotions play into sickness. It's just human, not crazy. But it's hard to recognize. I will always credit him with providing me essential help in a novel way at a time nobody else could or would.

     
  6. sianrecovery

    sianrecovery Senior Member

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    I read that 50 Stories book - and have worked my way through the stuff people in it found helpful. I tried Mickel therapy, which at 80 a session - the practitioner that the price was due to the cost of their supervision - made no difference. I also did the 90 Day psychology based course at the Optimum Health Clinic in London for a few hundred quid. They use a variant of the lightening process and Emotional Freedom Technique. While it yielded some useful insights into the constricting effects of fear and anxiety on me spiritually and emotionally, an obvious trap with any long term illness, it made no difference to my level of symptoms. I think ME, like any other illness - I also have a genetic kidney disorder and have had Hep C - requires work on the emotional, mental, physical and spiritual level. But for me, Mickel therapy was one of the least helpful paths I tried. The best recommendation in the book for me was Sarah Myhill, who, while she hasnt cured me, has made a real difference. Hope that is of help.
     
  7. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    Yeah, we are all different. I had a lot of (at the time) past and present trauma to process, and the therapy was definitely a turning point in my life choices.
     
  8. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    What about EMDR? Has anyone tried that for trauma?

    I have some lingering PTSD issues and have been curious to look in it.
     
  9. jonnyboy

    jonnyboy

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    I think the key here is patient selection. Clearly CFS is a waste basket diagnosis, and most people like myself are diagnosed largely by process of elimination.
    However I cannot for the life of me see, how a psychological treatment can cure some of the physical symptoms of CFS/ME like POTS or other dysautonomia.

    Clearly these methods have helped some people, and I'm happy that they have. But until there are some concrete diagnostic tests being used to assess fatigue and other symptoms a lot of this is guesswork really, and in all likelyhood people probably have different things wrong with them.

    I think I read it on Dr Myhill's site, where she says some people have undoubtedly been helped by psychological techniques, others made worse. Question is why? She believes that if a person does have physical things wrong, then psychological techniques wont cure, but if a person has recovered phsycially, but their brain hasnt realised this yet. Then psychological methods may work. I'm inclined to agree with this, or at least it makes some sense to me.

    For me I'm not even sure my diagnosis of CFS is correct anyway. My symptoms just dont seem to fit correctly, I've got completely debiliating fatigue, and am largely stuck to the couch/bed all day. I clearly have some form of dysautonomia, as standing up is what I cannot tolerate, and feeling like I'm in heart failure if I do. On the flip side, I dont get Post Exercise Malaise, just immediate malaise after standing, which goes after about 30mins of sitting down. I also have no muscle pain at all, and I dont have any cognitive/memory problems and can concentrate on a computer for like 12hrs a day.

    I wonder if anyone who scored lowly on a test like the ATP mitochondrial tests, has been cured by psychological techniques. Be very interesting if they have.

    I was reading another forum where someone said they had reverse therapy and it helped. Thing is their symptoms sounded nothing like mine, and theirs only came on when they started to worry about stuff. My symptoms only come on if I stand up, and if I'm laying flat I feel relatively ok.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
  10. CBS64

    CBS64

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    Firefly,

    How many sessions of the Reverse Therapy did you have? Were they done over the phone? How much improvement did you get from doing them (e.g., 20%)? Did the improvement hold over time without continued sessions?

    I'm wondering if anyone knows the difference between Mickel Therapy and Reverse Therapy.

    Thanks very much,
    CBS64
     
  11. Hope123

    Hope123 Senior Member

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    OP: I read the same book you did at the beginning of my illness and concluded that in some cases, the people involved did have what I had OR they were lucky to experience a spontaneous resolution or temporary remission [does happen for some people but the illness comes back] OR some folks were out to sell snake oil to others.

    Granted, I have not undergone either therapy but I've read enough to know that they're mostly psychologically-based despite being draped in scientific sheep's clothes [as many psuedo-scientific things are; they always have just a bit a truth in them to convince people to buy unless one looks very closely or has specialized knowledge]. Other than losing money, the main danger would be if the practitioners involved encouraged you do to things beyond the physical limits imposed by your illness ascribing them to psychological causes, causing your ME/CFS to worsen. [Look at the recently Lightning Process post here on the poor child who tried to commit suicide.] If you keep your symptoms in mind and are mindful of how your practitioner works, you can try to avoid some of the possible ill effects.

    If the issues one wants to get addressed involve anxiety, depression, coping with the illness, past trauma, etc., it might be less costly and even more effective to seek psychological care of a different type.
     
  12. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    The kind of diary that Mickel suggests you keep and that he comments on (if you're working from a distance) is very different from talk therapy.

    Whenever, once or twice a year, someone brings up this type of therapy I go back and read some of my "symptom" diaries and am astounded. In retrospect it all seems so clear.

    Within the range of your illness, whatever it is, you know for sure you have better and worse periods. There are days/hours/minutes you can do more and days/hours/minutes you can do less. Even if it's that standing up makes you feel awful and you have to lie down--some days it'll be instantly, and others a few minutes. Whatever your symptoms are, they will have a range. (This is from ME, not from Mickel...this is just my observation of re-reading some of my diaries just now).

    I just read one from April 2008. Toxic mold was all over the diaries and descriptions. I was having severe reactive MCS, and I "knew" it was from mold (I asked my body and my body said it was mold) yet I was still in some denial because it meant leaving. In addition, my symptoms were routinely worse from any form of civildevastation (noise, dirt, intrusion of any kind) and always routinely better from nature (even a walk in the park or looking out at the sunny day or playing nature sounds on the CD player).

    And here I am in nature. It is what something deep wanted. I got much better in nature.

    It's really hard to bite your own teeth, so to speak. The diaries make things clearer. If you watch even the smallest shifts in your symptoms and discover what makes them better and what makes them worse you will find astounding patterns.

    My two cents.
     
  13. firefly

    firefly

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    I found Reverse Therapy after after having gone to Mayo Clinic for POTs. I had tried Florinef, and had felt terrible on it. I interrupted the Florinef, and found Dr. Palermo, in Connecticut, who trained with John Eaton and is certified to work with RT. I had two in person sessions, each lasting aproximately two hours. Since then, I've kept in touch via phone and email.

    Reverse Therapy helped regain parts of my life back. We focused a great deal on breathwork, emotional release, working with fear. Thanks to RT, I was able to complete my Ph.D., regain a semblance of a social life, and take risks I never would have taken otherwise. How much did it help? It's hard to estimate. I have no doubt that just learning how to breathe correctly cools down the autonomic system, changes brain chemistry, hormone release, and many other physiological functions.

    I am still sick. My NK cell count is tanked. I still have POTS. And I still hope and wait for treatment that would actually cure me. I still disagree with Dr. P. about the mechanisms of illness in CFS. That said, I found RT to be helpful to me, and it has certainly changed my quality of life and outlook.

    As part of an integrated, comprehensive strategy, I think it could be of potential help for nearly any disease.
     
  14. firefly

    firefly

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    But if you do try it, I recommend going into having decided that you will not get mad when you disagree about what causes the disease. Otherwise, you will likely just get angry;

    The alternative is to view it as a toolbox: some of the tools in there are quite helpful and would have been tough to internalize otherwise. But just because some of the tools are helpful doesn't mean you have to agree with the entire background and worldview.

    On the other hand, if you know it will just make you mad, there are other ways to pick up some of the tools. Jon Kabat Zin's book, Full Catastrophe Living has some super practices tied to breathwork, yoga, and meditation. The advantage there is that he applies it to all diseases, from heart conditions, to cancer, to chronic pain. By going that route, you avoid having to deal with frustrating philosophy around CFS.

    What I found most intriguing and helpful in RT is the concept of stored cellular memories, which yield certain biological patterns, and finding ways to identify and "reverse" these.
     
  15. jenbooks

    jenbooks Guest

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    I agree. I would only add that I would go to the source. It's not recommended, I suppose, but I want the best. The guy who originated the therapy. The concepts are somewhat radical, in comparison to traditional talk therapy--but also, working with someone who has a complex illness and probably has fear and resistance--requires the utmost of skill and compassion. I just myself wouldn't work with a certified practitioner, I'd just go to the inventor, for at least a few sessions.
     
  16. greyham

    greyham

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    So what is the Mickel Therapy process?

    Can someone who has experienced Mickel Therapy describe what the therapist actually does in the consultations please? All the descriptions I can find on the 'net just say what it's supposed to do, but not how it does it. I'm skeptical and I'd like to hear if it's like any of the talking or retraining therapies I've tried so far. I can understand practitioners not wanting to divulge this given that they have to pay to learn it, but if there are any people who've tried it I'd be very interesting in hearing what process is used by the therapist.

    Thanks,
    Graham
     

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