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ME/CFS: A disease at war with itself
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Has anyone read the book "Detox or Die"

Discussion in 'Addressing Biotoxin, Chemical & Food Sensitivities' started by xlynx, Jan 17, 2010.

  1. xlynx

    xlynx Senior Member

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    Has anyone read the book "Detox or Die"

    Would you recommend it or anything else similar?

    Thanks
  2. Suzy

    Suzy Guest

    I read it. What I got out of it is to check for pestcide/chemcial toxin. This lead me to Dr. Myhills work and I'm going to be doing a fat biopsy just as soon as I can.

    I wish there were more references for teh success of sauining in ridding toxins but b/c of the way Sherry arranged the book (references in bulk at end of chapter as opposed to each claim referenced) I couldnt' find much evidence.

    BUt, overall, yes, I'd recommend it. I made a summary of the book - let me know if you'd like that.
  3. xlynx

    xlynx Senior Member

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    Hi Suzy,

    Thank you for replying, have you already written the summary? If so I would love to see it.

    Was the main suggested method of detoxing using a sauna such as FIR?

    Thank you, Jerry
  4. Suzy

    Suzy Guest

    Hi,
    The main method was sauna but also supplements to both detox/support and also to replace what is lost in th sauna. If you email me privately I can email you the summary.

    Yes, it's already written.

    Suzy
  5. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Sherry Rogers - Detox or Die

    Hi Jerry,

    I read this book several years ago. (Warning, Sherry Rogers is not a good writer.) I can't remember exactly why I found her writing so confounding, but I seem to remember thinking she was a rambler. Probably could have used half the words to describe her message and made it far more coherent.

    The one thing I did appreciate was getting one of the best descriptions I had read about coffee enemas. I had read about CEs for years, tried a couple (unsuccessfully) and was not sure what to make of them. After reading her take on why they're so important, I finally thought I had a much better understanding.

    She advocates their use when doing various detoxification measures to substantially reduce the toxic burden on the body. I believe she mentions that conventional medicine once found a compound, Retin A (a type of A vitamin) that was unbelievably successful in killing cancer cells. After doing trials with it, they discovered that the massive dieoff of cancers greatly overburdened the detoxification system of the patients. They eventually discontinued the Retin A research because of this problem.

    Various cancer clinics down in Mexico that use natural and alternative methods to treat cancer all incorporate coffee enemas in their therapy. I doubt they would even accept a cancer patient who objected as they feel it's a critical part of their treatment.

    I've come to believe that it would probably be good that everybody learn how to do CEs, especially PWCs who often have very compromised detoxification systems. Being able to have a ready answer to any type of detoxification crisis is not a bad thing to know as far as I'm concerned.

    Hope this helps.

    Wayne
  6. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Technically, it's called "Detoxify or Die" by Sherry Rogers MD who is an environmental medicine specialist. She wrote an earlier book called "Tired or Toxic" which covers some of the same territory. I think I might actually like that book better. It uses gentler methods of detox such as organic foods and antioxidants. It has a good explanation of the detox pathways.

    My EM doc says the way she writes is a bit overly dramatic, but she gives good info.

    I tried a FIR sauna several years ago and had a lot of trouble with even a very cautious small trial and had to discontinue. Now that I've done metal chelation, got my minerals absorbing better with betaine hydrochloride, and have also been taking Folapro for almost a year, I imagine I would do a lot better with it. But I'm still chicken after my last experience - I had chest pains for 2 years afterwards until I chelated out metals.
  7. Diva55

    Diva55 Member

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    Hi
    Rich Van K recommended a book called "7-Day Detox Miracle" By Peter Bennett & Stephen Barrie.

    As Rich said the title is very offputting but the content is very good.

    It's not just one of those do this for 7 days & you'll feel better. It contains lots of information on how the body works with toxins & even mentions FM & CFS! It explains good food, supplements & minerals.

    I read it a while ago & remember it being well laid out & easy to read. Your mail has come as a reminder to re-read it.

    I got it from Amazon - the American site rather than the UK one. I don't think it was expensive as I wouldn't have bought it.

    Best wishes
  8. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Diva

    Hi Diva,

    Thanks for posting and thanks for the recommendation, I ordered the 7-Day Detox Miracle book from Amazon this morning.

    Take care,

    Maxine
  9. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    I've got it too. When Rich first recommended it we all reminded ourselves that it wasn't written with CFS in mind, and a good bit of it would have to be modified to "fit" us. A lot of good info though.

    Sushi
  10. Diva55

    Diva55 Member

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    Hi Maxine
    I hope you enjoy the book .
    If you could post your thoughts after reading it as it would be good to get a fresh perspective on it.

    Best wishes
  11. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Diva 55

    Thanks Diva. I highly suspect I will like the book. I respect the recommendations from Rich and from people on this list. Many have really done their "homework". In the last few months I have been focused on trying to find inexpensive ways to try to help my health. I have had major improvements in some health problems from taking magnesium after reading some books on it. For me, I believe I have had a magnesium deficiency for two decades (probably a separate problems from the CFS).

    Just a few days ago I got the book "Could it be B-12" from the library and am now fascinated with trying B12. But now my neighbor across the street borrowed the book from me (she suspects her son of having B-12 deficiency), but I was finding that book very interesting too. It is amazing to me that the medical profession does not research and use more of these things for us.

    So, I am looking forward to receiving the 7-Day Detox book, reading it, and trying out some of it's suggestions. I will try to post my thoughts after reading it.

    Thanks Diva,

    Maxine
  12. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    I've got the book but never got round to reading it properly. I followed the FIR + supplements protocol for about a year (indirectly under Dr Myhill via another doctor), as well as making a lot of other changes to diet and lifestyle during that year, and whatever it was that did it, all my symptoms improved dramatically during that year. I also had a bunch of tests from Biolab which broadly confirmed most of the sensitivities I suspected. I still don't really know what were the key factors for me, but it did seem that the FIR sauna was very important, and that subsequent identification of food sensitivities and environmental triggers was also very important. I am now largely symptom free so long as I avoid all these triggers, but if I eat the wrong thing or get exposed to the wrong thing (like molds every autumn and spring) I relapse very quickly and soon have fatigue, muscle pains, loss of concentration, etc etc - it only seems to take a day or two to bring me back down and a week or two of heavy detox, saunas etc. to pull myself back out again. I didn't really start to feel benefits from the sauna etc until after a few weeks, and then the improvements seemed to be quite sudden and sharp progress following 2 or 3 particular sauna sessions that seemed unusual (pattern of sweating was different).

    I still don't really know what it all means, and I'm very cautious about concluding that Dr Myhill's protocol was what helped me, but I would certainly recommend it to anyone because it certainly seemed to be beneficial for me. My tentative conclusions - the model of how I think about it - is that each individual has a particular pattern of sensitivities, of which there may be very many and it can take years to identify them all; some are extremely hard to avoid entirely, and there are (non-standard) tests that are very helpful with this identification process (food sensitivity and environmental sensitivity testing would be my top recommendation for a worthwhile investment btw). The effects are very cumulative, so it seems to take a long time to gradually detox from these triggers, and until you are 90% detoxed and have identified 90% of the triggers it's very hard to notice any effects. Once detoxed, however, it became much easier to identify triggers - ie. from a position of being basically 90% well it became possible to notice the factors that made me worse again. Since then (a few years) I've continued to identify triggers, and I'm still doing so. I still react in exactly the same ways to all my triggers as I always have done, and relapse to classic CFS symptoms quite rapidly if I'm exposed to triggers for a few days. But so long as I manage to stay away from everything, I'm very functional. Needless to say, conventional allergy testing hasn't confirmed any of the other blood tests, but the tests I've had are absolutely consistent with my experience both before and after I had the tests so I do trust that they are right - for example, blood sensitivity tests a year ago listed all the things I believed I was sensitive to, plus a couple more sensitivities I hadn't found which I've since eliminated from my diet with beneficial results. Needless to say, my regular doctor thinks all those tests and theories are very dubious and doesn't believe any of it - and he also thinks I'm a bit odd for following this strange unscientific protocol, and that behaviour is evidence for him that CBT may be appropriate. I, on the other hand, see my patient behaviour as being quite rational: I see one doctor who has no clue what's going on and can't help me in any way, and I see another doctor who claims to understand it and actually helps me dramatically. Call me unscientific if you like, but I still think the doctor that's able to help me has a bit more in their favour, and I don't really care what the officially-santioned science says if it doesn't actually work for me.

    I made a decision (or came to a realisation), many years ago, that for me I had to proceed on the basis that in reality I had no doctor and I was completely on my own with this. I took it as my own responsibility to investigate the options available, to experiment myself with what worked and what didn't - to be my own doctor and do my own science and to place zero trust in the official bodies. It was a turning point for me, and I've been getting better and better ever since. I found Dr Myhill's work to be the most convincing I could find (that was available to me in the UK), and in practice I found it very effective. It overlapped with a lot of other good advice from other quarters, so it seemed to make sense, and it seemed to work out well. Any one of the things I did, and still do, may be irrelevant, but by trying everything I could find, for several years, eventually I seem to have found my way out. Who knows, I may have gradually recovered anyway, and I may never have had XMRV, or never have had ME, but for me, avoidance of triggers, avoidance of exertion, FIR, and supplements (and a whole lot of anti-inflammatories btw) have been the way forward. But as a final word on it, I doubt that this process can succeed without a lot of dedication: I had to take some pretty extreme measures for many years before I made real progress. Basically, I do think you have to take a lot of responsibility for managing and investigating it yourself, and even then, maybe I was just very lucky (albeit that I'm still left it a situation where I can't leave the controlled environment of my flat very often, and can only eat a very limited range of foods, or I will rapidly relapse).

    One more thought while I'm writing about all this period of my life: another thing I found incredibly helpful during this period was Shiatsu. My practitioner was a lovely person, and what I loved most about the approach was the holisitic nature and the quality of the therapeutic relationship. A one hour session encompassed a degree of counselling, discussion of symptoms, stacks of recommendations for foods to eat/avoid, supplements to try, etc etc (based on Chinese medicine principles) followed by a massage (the practical bit of Shiatsu). The main reason for mentioning Shiatsu here is that one of the things that happens in the massage is the therapist basically is gving your body a good workout, exercising the muscles etc, stretching everything out, but you just relax and meditate while they do that. I didn't experience any fatigue after these sessions (in fact I always felt incredibly peaceful, whole and balanced after each one - an effect which had largely worn off by the time I'd driven home unfortunately!). So it seems to me that Shiatsu massage may be a very good thing for people who aren't able to physically exercise themselves, because it can potentially keep your body active and healthy in the absence of that exercise: obviously there are consequences from not being able to exercise, and for me at least, Shiatsu appeared to help avoid those consequences. I'd be really interested if anybody else here has any experience of Shiatsu, and whether they felt post-exertional malaise after sessions or not, because if not, it would seem a very good thing for PWCs to explore.

    In summary: based on my experience, I would recommend FIR, detox, Dr Myhill, and Shiatsu without hesitation - the only qualification being: always try to objectively assess what is and is not effective for you as an individual and - while giving each protocol a fair chance - don't spend too long on dead-end treatments that aren't working. Cast the net wide until you find something that works for you. None of it is cheap though...
  13. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Wow, Mark, very informative post.

    Would you recommend the brand of FIR sauna that you have?

    Thanks,

    Maxine
  14. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Detoxification Thoughts

    Hi Mark,

    Thank you for your very interesting post. I'm sure I'll re-read it again a little later. I came to the same realization as you (above) and found it to be rather liberating. Taking full responsibility for our health instead of dealing with (and being unduly dependent on) uninformed and often incompetent doctors allowed me to get a focus I might not otherwise have gotten.

    I also incorporated (mostly out of necessity) the perspective that I needed to focus on inexpensive therapies before moving on to more expensive therapies. I think this is similar to Maxine's current view point when she mentions "In the last few months I have been focused on trying to find inexpensive ways to try to help my health."

    So here I sit, doing an inexpensive (but highly effective) clay footbath, holding oil in my mouth (oil pulling technique), to be followed by holding a clay solution in my mouth. I was recently able to start doing affordable regular FIR saunas after discovering a local health spa that has one available ($40/month). I'm doing some fairly inexpensive methylation supplements, and have learned how to do coffee enemas (CEs) when any detox situation gets too intense. (I'm not into intense detoxification regimes).

    I've been doing some of these things for varying periods of time (years), but I feel that every day, I'm getting a "smidgen" more toxic stuff out of my body. My perspective is the same as yours, in that I will suddenly arrive at a point where I will get "over the hump". You might describe this as a time when we are 90% detoxified. I think once this happens, my immune system should come back on line and hopefully be able to better address all kinds of opportunistic pathogens, including XMRV (if I have it).

    I anticipate looking at various types of low-cost immune enhancement therapies, similar to the way I focus on detoxification. There's a great thread on this board where many wrote in with suggestions on how to relatively inexpensively support our immune systems. LDN is a low-cost therapy that I expect to follow up on in the near future.

    I might add one last item here. I'm actually feeling pretty optimistic about my chances for significant improvement for this year and beyond. I want to mention however, that I don't feel I would feel nearly so confident had I not done a unique atlas repositioning (first cervical vertebra) that released a tremendous amount of pressure on my cranial nerves.

    My sister had this same technique done about two weeks ago, and within a few minutes, she mentioned how she felt a tremendous fog lift from her. She described this fog as something she had wondered for years if she would ever make her way out of.

    This technique is called AtlasPROfilax. Chiropractors do not know how to do this. Only someone who's had training to do this and is certified can do it correctly. BTW, AtlasPROfilax practitioners have found that 99%+ of people have a misaligned atlas. If a person has had a serious injury, the misalignment could be worse and put that much more pressure on the cranial nerves.

    Thanks again for your thoughtful post.

    Regards, Wayne
  15. xlynx

    xlynx Senior Member

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    Hi Mark,

    Really glad you posted that as I am on Dr Myhill protocol and got my sauna today!!!

    Great info, Thanks Jerry
  16. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi Caledonia,

    Thanks for clarifying this point. I realize now that the book I was referring to, and that had good information on coffee enemas, was the book "Tired or Toxic".

    Thanks for posting this Caledonia. Very interesting information. If I run into any chest pains along the way with my FIR saunas, I should have a much better take on it had I not known about your experience.

    Let's see, how can we get you a little more courage? Shall we send you to the Wizard of Oz? :Retro smile:

    Warmly, Wayne
  17. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Q's for those of you saunaing (funny word!)...

    .....do you use a mineral replacement formula? Electrolytes?

    Sushi, do you know if saunaing is contra indicated on your KPU/chelation protocol?

    The 7-Day Detox Miracle book is good by the way. Terrible title...:rolleyes: but some excellent info in there. :Retro smile:

    PS Mark I appreciated your post too.
  18. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    It's made by Avasa - not sure of the model, I'd have to look that up, but as I recall it cost less than 100 - that was over the internet from a UK supplier though.

    Wayne - I'd advise you to consider getting your own sauna rather than using one at a health spa. I was strongly cautioned not to use public saunas, because all I would be doing is opening up my pores to absorb whatever toxins the previous users may have sweated out. I think that's much more true of conventional public saunas - I tried that and they made me feel awful, whereas I used to really enjoy them - but I would guess it could still apply to FIR.

    I posted a load of detailed tips on FIR saunas based on my experience, on another thread about a month ago maybe - an advanced search for posts by me with 'FIR' or 'sauna' should find it...
  19. Mark

    Mark Acting CEO

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    Also, I was strongly advised to take the full supplementation protocol in combination with the sauna, especially to replace salts I would be sweating out. So I was also taking a (personally tailored) set of supplements: Co-Q10, magnesium, D-ribose, omega3/6, general vitamins, B12, some other specific vitamins. About 20-30 pills a day! Best source for info on this protocol would probably be
    www.drmyhill.co.uk

    As an aside, it's therefore impossible for me to know whether the FIR sauna was relevant to me. It might just have been the Co-Q10 that did it.

    Also worth mentioning Allergy UK for UK patients, they also deal with MCS and I found them very helpful indeed, lots of practical tips.
  20. Hysterical Woman

    Hysterical Woman Senior Member

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    Mark/saunas, etc.

    Hi again Mark,

    Thanks for the response. Looks like this might not be available in the U.S. Will have to do some more digging. Reasonable price. I have read that the brand can make a difference.

    Hmmmm - interesting point.

    I think I remember seeing Mark, will look for it again.

    Thanks again for the info. I will need to reread it again too.

    Maxine

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