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Has anyone "pushed through" "exitoxicity" type sypmtoms?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Adster, Aug 15, 2012.

  1. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I felt particularly good chelating early on with DMSA back at a time when logic would hold that methionine synthase was very underfunctioning based simply on the massive burden of mercury I have chelated since this time and the prior evidence of macrocytic anemia. I think DMSA has the potential to cause some symptomatic relief by inhibiting BHMT, the parallel pathway for generating methionine from homocysteine. Rich has cautioned against "overstimulating" the BHMT pathway at the expense of MS for years. I found his advice to be sound as TMG, in particular, was problematic. I would be curious if you also have trouble with zinc, a co-factor in the BHMT reaction. I don't think Rich has ever proposed this, but I think someone could use DMSA (every 3-4 hours please) to shift the flow towards methionine synthase because DMSA can effectively inhibit this reaction. I'm not sure how desirable this is, but it is interesting that the DMSA seems to help the excitoxicity. As I recall, the tissue expression for MS is vastly different than BHMT with MS having significant brain tissue expression vs. BHMT predominantly in the kidney/liver. (Rich please correct me if this is wrong)

    So, I could see how DMSA could provide relief to someone irrespective of metal burden.
     
  2. loring

    loring

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    For me it was NAC that pushed me over the edge. I am +/- for two CBS SNPs. It takes me about a week or so of no NAC to simmer back down. Because I am COMT +/+ I just started using hydroxyB12 vs Mb12.

    I have not tried potassium. Perhaps I should because muscle cramps are a big issue for me.
     
  3. Brandy Avila

    Brandy Avila

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    My son has this too. He describes it as electricity in his brain. Any methylation supplement will make it worse as well as any chemical exposure. He had grand mal seizures for a few years and that was the feeling he would get before. He gets very anxious and agitated and can't handle any EMFs during those times either. We found that epsom salt foot baths and powdered taurine would help. He is CBS and NOS +, but they still seem to help. He also sees a homeopathic doctor and when nothing else works, he takes his remedy and most of the time he is better. Our aim has been just to avoid a seizure, but now he hasn't had one for many months, so he just wants this feeling to go away. I am surprised that anyone would recommend gelatin since it is high in glutamate, which is excitatory. We are thinking of trying 5htp, because he has problems with anxiety and sleep. After that I think we will add gaba.
     
  4. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    I entirely agree with you. Gelatin IS excitatory and I cannot stand it in any way. Not even gelatin capsules in supplements.
    This leaves me with three possibilities :
    - the gelatin in pigs ears is different from the gelatin in supplements (gelatin in ice-cream, jelly deserts, glutamates in all forms etc... just as bad)
    - there is something in pigs ears that is sufficiently powerful to counteract the excitatory effects of the gelatin and the excitotoxic problem which was been addressed.
    - the gelatin is different AND there is something else.
    I have a vague idea but not researched it very well yet.
    Lots of good wishes,
    Asklipia
    :devil: FFP :devil:
     
  5. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    Gelatin is high in Glutamate? Man, I take heaps of gel caps! Thanks for bringing that up, I will order some vege caps! 5htp is great for anxiety and sleep, but just watch for depression, I had to stop taking it for that reason.
     
  6. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    Thanks for those thoughts Vegas. Zinc seems helpful at the moment, I'm taking a reasonably large amount 25mg morning and night. I really need to do some heavy metal testing, which I keep putting off because it's not an easy thing to get a GP interested in!
     
  7. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    I've just started adb12 and experiencing awful feelings of over stimulation. Anyone with a similar experience please share!

    Thanks.
     
  8. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Sorry about that arx. Which brand and which dosage please?
    Be well,
    Asklipia
     
  9. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Country Life 3000 mcg Dibencozide. I know it has some folic acid but it's the only adb12 I could find in India. I started off three days back taking quarter tablet everyday. I want to know what people have experienced when starting off with adb12. I also take 3000 mcg of mb12 and 800 mcg of metafolin everyday.
     
  10. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    arx, I took the exact same Country Life and it gives me vaguely some energy, I hardly feel any effect.
    Since you already take a fair amount of mb12, I doubt it would be the adb12 giving you these feelings of overexcitation.
    I am no expert here. But I can give you what comes to mind :
    - you may have changed something else in your diet/something happened in your life;
    - it could be the folic acid = folic acid is pteroyl-L-glutamate.
    My theory is that we suffer from what I called Fake Folate Poisoning. That after the introduction of fake folates in the diet (this happened 150 years ago on a large scale), humans have adapted by genetic modifications, some of which make us react to folates in bizarre ways, and some of them result in Riboflavin deficiency which has serious effects on the nervous system.
    - As to what this genetic-induced Riboflavin deficiency brings : see what I wrote here : http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b2-i-love-you.15209/page-28#post-288216
    - as to fakes folates, do not believe for one second that being in India you have escaped the food revolution. There was Marmite, and all yeast extracts, especially for the well to do children. Malted flour and biscuits. Both absolutely full of fake folates. Now there is MSG (monosodium glutamate) in every curry which is not home-made AND home-made curries too, since fake folates are highly addictive, they never taste as good anymore once you have tasted the fake folate somewhere. You will notice the MSG being sold in bags in the markets. For home use.
    Instead of cooking with ghee the whole of India is now encouraged to cook with vanaspati, which is hydrogenated fat = dangerous fake folate.
    All this is very bad for you in many ways, but subtle and no easily noticed at first. The end result used to be cancer in your seventies for lack of vitamin K (fake folates being anti-K). Now we have evolved and we see these nervous problems (cancer would be for later if we ever reached that stage). Autistic children are the last in the line.
    It is a silent problem, until one day the straw breaks the camel's backs. This is very difficult to cure.

    A solution for you right now : if Freddd is right and I understood properly what he wrote, you may overwhelm this fake folate problem (brought about by taking a glutamate) with a folate which is easier to assimilate, that is metafolin.
    He may well be right. But that does not stop the poisoning at its source. In my experience it is not possible (yet!!! I still have hope!)
    - to modify your genes so that you do not belong to the at risk population who has genes that cannot process folic acid and most probably other folates properly, thus pushing you into "folate poisoning";
    - to feel well and keep your body happy if you go on taking fake folates. Big problem. Metafolin may not be the answer to all the damage, as far as I know.

    "Fake Folates" .... think "Favourite Foods"

    Lots of good wishes,
    Be well,
    Asklipia
    :devil: FFP :devil:
     
  11. triffid113

    triffid113 Day of the Square Peg

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    Yes. 75mg DHEA in divided dose does it for me in about 15 min I am ok again and as long as I keep it in my system (divided dose) I remain ok. The higher doses of DHEA were studied as effective for depression at one time (I have not kept up with the studies). Panic is not depression but it works for me LIKE A CHARM. W/o it I have such bad glutamate toxicity that it could kill me. P.S. Estrogen is proven by multiple studies to protect against glutamate toxicity, so it may be the estrogen it makes that is what works.
     
  12. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

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    I've had this for the last six years. In my case it seems to relate to what Dr Cheney was talking about in his Fairfax lecture. According to his gauge some interventions improve energy and some worsen it. Those he says worsen it paradoxically make me feel much better for a day before the negatives kick in. I think during this time of feeling better I'm simply using up stored glucose and the cell is able to function at near-normal energy for a short time, albeit anaerobic energy. The problem seems to lie in the inability to function aerobically at a sufficient level, which is what Cheney has discovered giving people concentrated oxygen, hence what he calls oxygen toxicity. That's how I understand it.

    Rich believes Cheney's measurements reflect a short-term negative, and that things right themselves over time as you correct the methylation block and GSH deficiency at the root of the problem. I've tried for up to a week to push through the excitotoxicity, but my body tells me in increasingly strong language to back off: the muscles in my arms and legs twitch relentlessly, arrhythmia becomes the norm, heightened electrical sensitivity, and a feeling like I'm coming out of my head. I also develop sweaty hands and feet, as well as a skunky smell from my armpits when excitotoxic. And unfortunately GSH provokes this reaction instead of guarding against it as Rich suggests it should.

    This phenomenon expanded to result from an ever-widening array of substances, including foods: beef, eggs, pork, chicken, etc. -what TCM practitioners would call Yang foods. There are papers endeavoring to tie Yin/Yang into reduction/oxidation. One of the points they mention is that anti-oxidants can become pro-oxidant under certain conditions, just like "out of the Yin comes Yang". Cheney has voiced this (using the former context, of course). I've often thought people who are particularly sensitive to this sort of reaction might do well on what Cheney's work suggests to be effective: magnesium, heart and brain glandulars, wormwood, benzos, etc.

    Lately I've been thinking about this thing in a different light as my excitotoxicity has actually begun to recede for the first time in six years -though I suspect this is the result of further deterioration. Curiously, I'm able to bring back this excitotoxicity with large doses of B5 coupled with any of the formerly stimulating substances. This development has me reasoning that this ability to shift into full anaerobic mode depends on adequate participation of the sympathetic nervous system: the adrenals.

    I've been meaning to ask Rich if this is possible or likely. So Rich, if you're reading this, is it possible excitotoxicity could depend on participation of the sympathetic system along with oxidative stress?
     
  13. taniaaust1

    taniaaust1

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    Ive been throu a lot of neurotoxicity stuff before with the ME (the neurotoxicity wasnt being caused by any supplements I was taking but was caused thou me over doing things) and know from my experience that ignoring the neurotoxicity is one of the worst things a person can do.
    My neurotoxicity got so bad due to me not easing up on things that I started having seizures (seizures which I still do get occassionally from that time). The neurotoxicty symptoms ended up making a doctor who saw me call an ambulance as they were that severe (constant tremors, jerks, spasms, hyper-reflexia, my pupils werent reacting right etc etc then a severe horrendous wired anxiety feel on top).

    It may of been that extreme neurotoxicity which lead to the severe autonomic issues Ive been left with today. So my view on all this is do not ignore neurotoxcity symptoms and dont keep on doing anything which is triggering them off. If you make this symptom too bad you may end up needing to take benzo like Klonopin which of cause in some can end up leading to further issues but in my own case.. it was good. (I ended up having to take that for my symptoms.. its called Rivotril where I are).
     
  14. MishMash

    MishMash *****

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    Adster:

    I definitely get the symptoms you described. I have related them to something kind of simple. Reactivity to seasonal allergies. Right now in the US it's ragweed season. Ragweed seems to be the most "toxic" of the allergens that I'm affected by. I don't think these are the typical IgE mediated allergies. They affect our CNS somehow. I have no idea what to do about it though. But that overall excitotoxic feeling is definitely I get. Sometimes I feel like I'm going to split right out of my skin.

    I use benzos mostly. But even they only work some of the time. And take as many breaks as possible. As you said it is very hard to sleep. It's hard to describe the feelings to even our trained CFS specialists.
     
  15. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi. Dufresne.

    Sorry, I don't have a good answer for your question. Excitotoxicity seems to be a complex phenomenon. Lowering the intake of foods high in glutamate is one thing that can be done. Taking supplements that calm the NMDA receptors is another, and Amy Yasko has given lists of them. I've suggested that L-cystine (not L-cysteine) might raise glutathione in the brain, and help with this (but not if there is a high mercury body burden, because it can move mercury into the brain). Another possibility would be supplementing manganese, if it is low, because it supports glutamine synthetase, which converts glutamate to glutamine. I don't think it's a good idea to try to "push through" excitotoxicity, because it may be killing neurons.

    Best regards, Rich
     
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  16. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    Thanks for all the responses. It doesn't sound like anyone has pushed through and been glad they did.
     
  17. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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  18. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Hi Rich, thank you for your input.
    In that case, what happens to the manganese? Would a continuous supply of glutamates bring on a manganese depletion, or is that same manganese used over and over again?
    Sorry that I am not able to ascertain this by myself.
    Best regards,
    Asklipia
     
  19. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Asklipia.

    Yes and yes. The manganese is used over and over, but it is also excreted, so there is a continuing need for it, as is true of the other essential minerals. If a person's diet is too low in manganese, or if the digestive system does not absorb it in normal amounts, a person will become deficient in it.
    Best regards, Rich
     
  20. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Thank you Rich!
     

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