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Has anyone added low dose lithium orotate into the mix?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Rand56, Feb 23, 2012.

  1. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    I can't say whether it boosts immunity but it helps B12 transport, reduces glutamate's toxic effects, and stabilizes milder mood issues like anxiety,depression, & agitation. i used 1/4 cap three times day once I was discharged from the ICU but started at a sprinkle. Most times, big doses aren't necessary. Its extremely rare to have toxic side effects. You'd have to have existing kidney failure, in which case a mag capsule will dump you over the edge, or maybe taking way too many capsules instead of the low dose. The toxic issues people worry about with lithium apply to carbonate.

    It indirectly reduces microglial activation in the brain so for most people, it would be helpful. I'll bet there are other SNPs that make a difference here that we haven't figured out so it pays to start at a little sprinkle.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  2. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    maryb, Lithium carbonate is rx for bi-polar, used in high doses. This low-dose lithium orotate rectifies rapid cycling of neurotransmitters for those of us w/ SNPs that create something similar. A good site w/ lithium info:
    http://mysite.verizon.net/res003jh/lithium-orotate/

    Also, "Mercury excretion can affect the levels of lithium and iodine. You can rebalance iodine with 1/4 to 1⁄2 tablet of the supplement Iodoral (or other natural forms of iodine). For healthy lithium levels, 1/4 lithium oratate is recommended." Yasko, Autism: Pathways to Recovery pg 119 (free ebook: http://www.holisticheal.com/autism-pathways-to-recovery-book-and-workbook.html)

    And not only metal detox, but bacteria can affect neurotransmitter levels: "Also, as you know I am really focusing heavily on the H.pylori part of the puzzle. I believe this is a very significant piece for virtually everyone on the program. H.pylori can create imbalances in neurotransmitters. One of the signs is very high 5HIAA on a MAP in the absence of too many serotonin donors or SSRI prescription meds. So, we are seeing very high 5HIAA in some cases for no apparent reason in terms of medication or supplement support." (Yasko forum)

    A long quote of Yasko from her forum. These are only accessed if you register for forum. And, I've found the links are rather quickly no good. http://www.ch3nutrigenomics.com/php...lit=lithium cycling neurotransmitters#p145668

    "In contrast to lithium toxicity due to irresponsible dosing, I am more concerned at the moment about lithium deficiency. Lack of lithium can create significant symptoms, some of which I believe we are seeing in some of the individuals who have been excreting large amounts of lithium. Lithium deficiency can cause altered behavior, aggression, manic behavior, bipolar behavior. According to a 2002 article in the American College of Nutrition, “…the decreasing order of magnitude of the associations (with lithium deficiency) was neurosis, schizophrenia, psychosis, first admission to the hospital, all admissions, personality, homicide and secondary admissions “ Upon lithium supplementation in a placebo controlled study it was found that “…receiving 400 µg of lithium per day … for four weeks. … total (positive) mood test scores increased steadily during the four weeks of supplementation and specifically in the subcategories reflecting happiness, friendliness and energy. In the placebo group, the combined mood scores showed no consistent changes; the happiness scores actually declined.” http://www.jacn.org/cgi/reprint/21/1/14

    "Lithium deficiency has been associated with feelings of suicide, as well as bipolar disorder as mentioned above (bipolar disorder is a severe mood disorder characterized by manic or depressive episodes that usually cycle back and forth between depression and mania. The depressive phase is characterized by sluggishness (inertia), loss of self-esteem, helplessness, withdrawal and sadness, with suicide being a risk. The manic phase is characterized by elation, hyperactivity, over-involvement in activities, inflated self-esteem, a tendency to be easily distracted, and little need for sleep. In either phase there is frequently a dependence on alcohol or other substances of abuse.) Trials have conclusively demonstrated that lithium is also an effective treatment for recurrent unipolar depressive illness (recurrent major affective disorder). Lithium orotate has also been used with success in alleviating the pain from migraine and cluster headaches, low white blood cell counts, juvenile convulsive disease, alcoholism and liver disorders. Deficiency has also been reported to relate to reduced growth rates and ADD.

    "Lithium has been implicated in helping to control glutamate levels such that it is reported to have positive impacts on Alzheimers, ALS, Parkinsons as well as other glutamate associated issues (which can include seizure activity). Lithium historically has been used to treat gout as it helps to dissolve uric acid crystals (this could infer that it might play a role in high uric acid). It also helps to decrease norepinephrine relative to serotonin levels. It may also help to reset the circadian clock (sleep/awake cycle).

    "Clearly, lack of lithium in the body is a concern and I have had emails from some of the individuals excreting large amounts of lithium over time that list many of the symptoms I just described. Again, you want to carefully monitor lithium supplementation with UEEs and with your doctor’s guidance, although I do feel that toxicity is not a common event when using such low doses. Rather I am concerned that lithium depletion may be an issue associated with excretion of metals under some conditions.

    "Finally, preliminary data suggests that there may be a genetic predisposition in terms of those who are dumping large amounts of lithium and seeing some side effects that may relate to lithium deficiency. Thus far, and again, this is an early point in my looking into this, it appears that those who are SHMT + and either have significant MTRR mutations (ie H595Y and /or K350A etc) or MTR + seem to be the ones dumping the lithium along with cadmium or lead. So, again, if you are SHMT + and have multiple MTRR mutations or SHMT + and MTR + please run regular UEE tests especially if you are using any chelating agents that are not a regular part of this program."
  3. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    ahmo
    thank you so much for your detailed reply. Unfortunately I don't have a doctor I could work with at present, but I think it would help me to have some genetic testing. I had some testing done by Dr Bork-in (saliva) all my neurotransmitters were in the normal range. I don't suffer from any mood problems - no depression etc.
    What I do have is an inability to handle stress since becoming ill. I have a lot of brain inflammation and cognitive problems, that is the reason for my interest in lithium. I suppose my fear is always of upsetting the status quo with regards to neurotransmitters.
  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Lithium is supposed to help with B12 transport. Greenshots said something about B12 not getting into the right places. Freddd has talked about getting B12 into the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF). Would lithium help get B12 into the CSF?
  5. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Someone mentioned toxicity and carbonate. Without hijacking this thread from lithium, would someone care to expand on the carbonate side of things?
  6. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    You'll find info about lithium carbonate all over the web, its an older psych med but they still use it once in a while for bipolar. Just like MAO drugs of the past, it had all sorts of side effects, some fatal. Plus the patients it was used on weren't always compliant about getting their labs checked regularly to stay in therapeutic ranges. Now that all the newer mood stabilizers came into the picture like Zyprexa, abilify, cymbalta, risperdol, and the like, lithium carbonate isn't used anymore.
  7. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    dbkita Thats exactly the way I respond to L.O. a walking zombie, limp noodle,brain dead on just a tiny amount........I wonder if my reaction has something to do with thyroid issues? Have you learned anything more about why you react to it that way too?
  8. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    Not sure if that would do it, JM, but if ya only did a few crumbs or teensy, teensy sprinkle and felt that way then maybe its not for you.
  9. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    I did 2.5 mg
  10. Fredricktoo

    Fredricktoo

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    I knew someone well who was taking Lithium Carbonate for several years to treat Bi-Polar disorder. Blood tests were performed on her on a regular basis to establish her lithium levels. Of primary concern for the prescribing doctor was whether my friend was compliant with her regimen. Seems that lithium is of a lot of use in controlling the manic component of the disorder. It contributes as a mood stabilizer in the depressive state. It actually does work for slow cyclers pretty well. Rapid cyclers (manic to depressed to manic etc.) not so much. Too much lithium in the blood stream is usually accomanied by vomiting and diarrhea. Think food poisoning reaction type of sick. Therapeutic doses of lithium carbonate can range from 600 to 2,400 mg.

    "In the Lithium Orotate compound, lithium is bound to an orotate ion, rather than to a carbonate or other ion. — Wikipedia" - and this seems to be deemed safe enough to sell over the counter here in the US

    In one suggested serving of the Swanson brand of LO it says I get 5mg of Lithium from 131mg of Lithium Orotate. Not really sure how that works.
  11. finalgates

    finalgates

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    lithium orotate 2,5mg is enough for 10mg enzy b12?for transport?
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    I don't know but it is certainly worth a try in my opinion. I have not the slightest idea why those of us with the usual diseases, ME/FMS/CFS/MS/Parkinson's have so much trouble either getting the cobalamin into the CSF OR retaining it there. The Japanese intrathecal injections of 2.5mg of MeCbl and follow up showed that the high CSF levels and effects last from less than 3 months to more than 4 years. These were people with diabetic neuropathies so they were not necessarily part of this group but they did show tremendous variation in CSF cobalamin retention.

    In this metal based vitamin (cobalt) other minerals/metals (magnesium and zinc) have critical interactions. Something like bipolar disorder, rapid and volatile mood shifts, occurs during healing as well as during deterioration. As this transport problem is the very thing I am confronted with currently, your timing couldn't be better.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Dbkita,

    Very interesting. I wish I had read this months ago.
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Greenshots,

    Zyprexa, abilify, cymbalta, risperdol, and the like

    These are some VERY dangerous drugs in certain ways and most of them have sudden drop dead possibilities, as do some of the older ones like Dilantin at about 1:1,000,000. Then there is tardive dyskinesia and all sorts of other things. There isn't one you name I would take and refused most along the way. One doctor actually wanted to use Zyprexa as a sleep aid when what I needed was pain relief and repair of neurology. Morphine for the non-neurological pain and the drastic relief of neurological pain and other changes that occurred in 9 months on MeCbl normalized sleep. Metafolin returned normal dreaming to me.

    MAOI drugs are still quite dangerous but the permanent inhibiting ones ones are not as popular now. As far as I know any of them can cause fatal side effects with numerous OTC and prescription meds; either skyrocket BP or zero BP generally, when taken concurrently.

    Lithium carbonate is dangerous too, in a dose dependent way; larger doses are more dangerous and had to be monitored with testing.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Now that is a very good question. I will mention that L-methylfolate allows longer retention of B12s in the body while folic or folinic acids, glutathione (NAC sometimes too) or LACK OF L-methylfolate can all cause a much shorter serum halflife for serum cobalamin.
  16. roxie60

    roxie60 Senior Member

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    lithium orotate is discussed in other threads so you may benefit from using the search to see past discussions.
  17. finalgates

    finalgates

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    i started lithium orotate 2,5mg a day and the only thing i noticed is a bit better mood.i take it with b12.i dont know if helps b12 absorption.maybe
  18. EtherSpin

    EtherSpin

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    I've just been told to go on it by my CFS doc as an extra tool in fighting my recent depression (which came along with added viral load and memory loss) - I need to find somewhere to source it (to Australia) as Iherb just sold out. it will then be added to my stack of fluoxetine/prozac,seroquel & low dose naltrexone
  19. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    google biovea they sell supps and over the counter type meds, they use to sell lithium orotate.
  20. EtherSpin

    EtherSpin

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    thanks for the tip but unfortunately the one they sell won't ship here (even though they will do melatonin and pregnenolone!!) - I think a friend is sorting out for me to get a few capsules to try until iherb restocks the one variety they do ship here :)

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