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Has anybody else had symptoms of gout after taking hydroxycobalim?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Mels, Nov 8, 2014.

  1. Mels

    Mels

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    Have recently been struggling lately with gout-like symptoms; never had gout in my life before. I first noticed pain in my big toe and ankle after taking potassium glutamate; wondered if I was overloading my kidneys and causing uric acid to rise? However, yesterday I took one drop of Yasko's hydroxycobalim and got multiple joint pain, strange tinglings and all the improvement I'd begun to feel over the last few days has completely gone. I'm aiming to do a 3 week kidney flush once the ingredients arrive as I wonder if my sluggish liver has caused a kidney problem. Would love to hear if anybody has experienced similar with this creative illness( itseems to make things up all the time!)
    Mels
     
  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I have researched this before and concluded that B vitamins + potassium can use up magnesium very quickly if you are low in it (low carb diets, abx and other meds also deplete Mg).

    Magnesium keeps uric acid in check and also helps the liver. Gotta watch for further electrolyte imbalances (esp. calcium).

    Hope this helps

    izzy
     
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  3. Mels

    Mels

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    @Gondwanaland Thanks for this. It is all so complicated! Have been reading about B1 and how if one is low in it but takes potassium it can cause problems; started taking B1 a few days ago but still need potassium and react badly when I take it so wonder if it is a reflection of low B1 status? Could maybe be beriberi but can't find much about that .Will also up the magnesium. I read that Magnesium oxide is not well absorbed but think that you find it works for you?

    Mels
     
  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    MgO is the only one that works for me. I had to stop the B complex and B12 and everything to load up Mg. Besides being low in Mg due to diet and B supps, I had a few abx rounds which made me really depleted.

    Do you have lab results for uric acid? Mine was just above range, I didn't have a gout attack, but it was making me too acidic and I was reacting to all foods I ate.

    Then after my Mg "load" I restarted the low dose Bcomplex and barelly needed any potassium supplementation. I think it's because I can hold the potassium inside the cells now. But I am still unable to take B12 + B9 (brain fog).

    According to the book Potassium Nutrition, potassium supplementation when B1 is deficient will induce beri-beri. Both potassium and B1 should be supplemented slowly titrating up to ideal levels.

    I don't know if what worked for me will work for you too, but if you are sure your uric acid is high, magnesium can help, and will probably help other issues too.
     
  5. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Like Gondwanaland mentioned magnesium is amazing for a multitude of reasons, if you are very deficient you need to use transdermal magnesium. Oral magnesium will not do enough in case of much lower intra cellular levels. You can take up to 1000mg of Magnesium a day without ill effect if there are no underlying health issues with the kidneys. Cod Liver oil can also help to support the kidneys and ease any issues with uric acid.
     
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  6. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I personally never tolerated more than 600mg of magnesium orally, for a limited time span (4-6 weeks). Right now I take 80mg of magnesium daily with my low dose Bcomplex. Before that never tolerated Epsom salts either (sulfate wasn't good with my high ammonia).
     
  7. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    I use a different formula transdermal magnesium with chloride, magnesium sulfate can indeed cause issues for some. Oral magnesium can cause a lot of gastrointestinal issues when you go higher then 400mg among other things. Trans dermal non sulfate formula helps to prevent a lot of these issues without as bad of side effects. Some people are still extra sensitive though so that can always be something. There are also notable side effects when restoring from extremely low levels.
     
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  8. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

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    I've also suffered from gout, after starting methylation treatment. Best I've learned is that the methylation process is part of the process that breaks purines down and forms uric acid. If that's been broken in the past, and you start to improve the process by providing the supplements that kick start the process again, you can have a ton of purines in your system that have been cycling through and get a build up of uric acid.

    Sadly, the only form of magnesium I can tolerate appears to be epsom salt baths - everything else has caused explosive diarrhea (even at miniscule doses) or the transdermal causes hives. But I do tolerate the epsom salt baths AND those baths reduce my chronic pain, so I take them as often as possible with my schedule. It's probably not enough, but it does seem to help for muscle aches.

    When I have gout flares, I've taken alkaline mineral A-C Carmabide - I take a couple of pills filled with this and it will stop a flare up in it's tracks, I'll take a couple more pills over a period of a week or so and it keeps it from coming back right away.
     
  9. Mels

    Mels

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    @Godwanaland Thanks for your input again. Which low dose B complex are you taking? Have you found one without B12 and B 9? Am waiting for uric acid results. Just don't know what to think......have tried taking B1 on its own as wonder if going gluten free has depleted that. Am very diet restricted at the moment - low protein as trying to control homozygous CBS - , low sulphur -so no green veggies(could that have further depleted folate??), no dairy, little fruit as ? candida......I do wonder if being so restricted is in itself damaging as I am having symptoms that I didn't used to have! It's all so complicated.

    @Martial Thank you for your ideas. I take mg citrate orally - about to try mg oxide -and use mg chloride oil transdermally. Despite this my levels are going down so I am either using it up faster than I am eplenishing or not absorbing. I do have long standing gut issues - which will not help absorption.

    @PennyIA Thank you for replying......I wonder if I have stirred up the purines. Did you get gout pains under your foot and in your toes? I also get it - if that's what it is! - in my elbows and knees and funny tingling in my hands and feet. Unless I have induced beri beri by taking potassium without supporting B1. Have looked up the A-C Carmabide but it's not available in the uk.
     
  10. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @Mels I have made friends with a pharmacist owner of a local compounding pharmacy and she compounds my B complex at my request, therefore no B9 or B12 right now. I don't know how things work in your country, but here cmpd pharmacies can sell their own formulations for OTC vitamins, so it was easy for me to order a cutomized one. It can be more expensive than ordering online, but since I must pay 100% import taxes on everything :mad:, it is not that much more expensive.:rolleyes:

    I feel for you since you seem to be at the same uncomfortable place I was a few months ago.

    Have you read caledonia's document "Start low and go slow"? I think she has some tips on how to divide doses. I split some capsules of other supps I buy online and learned here:
    A pill crusher might also help.

    Of course a restrictive diet can make deficiencies worse. I was on a paleo diet and the forbidden legumes are the richest sources of B1 :cautious: On top of that high uric acid seems to result in salicylate sensitivity, it's a snowball.

    I found this site useful for magnesium info http://george-eby-research.com/html/depression-anxiety.html , use the left menu to navigate thru the content, also do a search for magnesium oxide. Apparently gut bacteria don't feed on it. I was lucky to tolerate it b/c I have chronic constipation, too bad I felt no benefits in this regard.:rolleyes:

    If you follow a low thiol diet rather than low sulfur, some greens are allowed:
    http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/food/high-sulfur-sulphur-food-list/
    The problem really begins when you also have to cut histamines, salicylates, nitrates, goitrogens, and whatnot

    Be sure to check thyroid as well. TSH, free T4, free T3 and reverse T3 are useful tests. Some doctors think free Ts aren't necessary, if you are having a hard time there, TSH, total T4 and total T3 can help also.

    I know it is complicated, but at some point you get used to it :ill:

    This site helps me while navigating thru symptoms http://www.acu-cell.com/acn.html

    I hope I didn't add too much to your confusion :eek:

    izzy
     
  11. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    A little warning about mag chloride: chloride increases acidity (at least when taken orally), and that is not desired when uric acid is high. Do a trial before covering your whole body with it :eek: If it doesn't work now, save it for later when your uric acid is back to normal levels
     
  12. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Isn't that to aid gastric acid production to produce HCL in the stomach? I don't know if it effects levels of acid for the rest of the body, though again important to make sure there are no underlying kidney disorders as higher dosed magnesium is never good for that.
     
  13. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

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    That's interesting that it's not available in the uk, Perhaps you can get the Camabide without the arrowroot? That's just a base mineral without the other 'benefits' that comes with the blend.

    My pain was primarily in my toes. And although I've never had my uric acid levels taken (I thought they were going to, but then I found out that the doctor would want to pull fluid from within the pain points in my toes... well, I'm ok with them not doing that after all). But the NP I was working with suggested that if it helps, it would be helping to reduce acid levels and that it helped, it would help prove that I have gout.

    I'd experienced it a few times a few years back, and I'm such a clutz and can really be forgetful (thanks brain fog)... I'd always wondered what on earth I could have possibly done to my toes to make them hurt SO BAD, like stubbing your toe ONLY it doesn't go away after a few minutes. Man, it'd hurt for DAYS. But it would be once every four or five years or so. After I started methylation treatment, I started to get it every couple of weeks. complete misery
     
  14. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    If your levels are still going down then oral magnesium will not yield enough absorption. Your diet sounds like it lacks a lot of key nutrients and minerals though, with that much restriction it is very difficult to get your RDV for the necessary vitamins. How much calories do you eat a day, and any idea if you cover your bases for the basic vitamins and minerals?

    A multi vitamin and supplements is never as beneficial as getting nutrition from whole food sources. Like Gondwandaland mentioned maybe look into the Magnesium chloride a bit before using, but it seems like a good choice. It does aid and help digestion but if it does build up acid levels for the rest of your body then best to avoid that for now. I can't really find any information on that but in the least you can take changes to reduce production of urea.
    A lot of the symptoms you mentioned do not really sound gout like though. This may mean there is some uric acid issues on top of other things, or maybe that something else is causing symptoms similar to gout.

    Pain under your feet is classical of magnesium and potassium deficiency, tingling in your hands and feet as well, elbows and knees aren't usually associated with it either. To be honest at least some of what you have mentioned sounds like potassium deficiency which is no surprise. Using methyl b12 and or methyl folate will rapidly soak up potassium, magnesium, and chloride reserves, also increasing demand for the other essential vitamins and minerals. It is important you supply adequate nutrition and mineral needs when you boost the bodies natural methylation cycle.
     
  15. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

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    Very interesting, I am currently taking potassium supplements as I've had the doctor monitoring it while on methylation treatment and it's been coming in low.

    And fwiw - I'm pretty sure that the efficiency of the epsom salt baths which are the only way I've seemed to be able to tolerate magnesium ... means that I'm probably low in it as well.

    I've been trying to buy organic foods and I think this is a sign of the nutritional deficiencies of the food sources in that the soil (even organic soil) seems to be a bit over-farmed (at least in this area).

    I suffer from chronic diarrhea, and have been worried about electrolyte imbalance... (doc shrugs it off and just told me first to drink more water, then to add salt to my water - when my blood pressure kept dropping low enough to be concerned... and now finally gave me potassium supplements after a thorough discussion about low-level consistent diarrhea and how it might increase risk of potassium deficiency when he wanted to shrug off my lot potassium - sigh ... of course, all of this was from me, he acknowledged I might have something, but grudgingly).
     
  16. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I forgot to add that bathing in sodium bicarbonate helped immensely with reducing the uric acid symptoms. This is one of @ahmo 's ideas :angel:

    At first I tried bicarbonate in a foot bath, then I showered using only bicarbonate as a scrub. Since I noticed no ill effects from it, I then plunged into a full bath with about 3/4 cup of sodium bicarbonate in the bathtub. Immediate relief of uric acid, ammonia and lactic acid symptoms! :thumbsup:

    @Martial : chloride is an active, acidifying blood electrolyte.
     
  17. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I just came across this site. there are a lot of articles re bicarb, also magnesium, iodine.
    http://drsircus.com/medicine/sodium-bicarbonate-baking-soda/

    And this one referred to using mag oil in a nebulizer
    http://drsircus.com/medicine/magnesium/nebulizing-magnesium-and-other-medicinals


    whoops...the thread where I got this link has also the following comment:
    zzz goes on to say clarify re the type of mg, not that the whole concept is wrong.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/nebulizing-magnesium-and-other-stuff.33701/
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2014
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  18. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Wait just found this study while looking into it, be careful with the sodium bicarbonate it can have paradoxical side effects.

    "In some patients, only a small amount of bicarbonate may be required. For example, if a patient has a Pco2 of 13 mmHg and bicarbonate of 4 mEq/L, then his arterial pH is 7.1. If the bicarbonate is doubled (raised to only 8 mEq/L), then the blood pH will increase to 7.4. This is true only if the Pco2 does not change. In this example, given a static Pco2, if the bicarbonate concentration rises only 1 mEq/L, then the pH would be above 7.2. Arterial Pco2 typically, however, does not remain the same after NaHCO3infusion. In patients with severe acidosis, it rises 6.7 ± 1.8 mmHg when an infusion of sodium bicarbonate is given (1.5 mmol/kg over 5 min).8 By contrast, infusion with THAM® (Hospira Inc., Lake Forest, IL) or CarbiCarb® (International Medication System, South El Monte, CA) does not affect arterial Pco2.8,9 These observations have led some investigators to recommend either of these compounds as preferred therapy.2

    Bicarbonate therapy is also associated with an increase in mortality. This has been noted in humans and experimental animals under a variety of acidemic conditions.1012 The increase in mortality is blamed on a fall in BP and cardiac output. There are also shifts in ionized calcium; in strong acid acidosis, potassium also shifts out of the cell sensitizing the heart to abnormal electrical activity and subsequent arrhythmias. Moreover, a “paradoxic” intracellular acidosis may occur when giving bicarbonate therapy because CO2 generated from its titration freely diffuses across the cell membrane. In addition, both volume expansion and hypernatremia can occur; in patients with compromised cardiac output, fulminate congestive heart failure with flash pulmonary edema may result.

    Many in vitro studies show that intracellular alkalinization hastens cell death after anoxia13; if cell water is maintained at pH 6.8, for example, more tissue remains viable.14,15 Bicarbonate administration may stimulate superoxide formation, increase proinflammatory cytokine release, or enhance apoptosis. Whether these observations relate to human disorders with acidemia is unknown. Rebound alkalemia may also occur after base administration, especially when the Pco2 is low. Giving bicarbonate to both animals and humans increases blood lactate and ketone bodies.6,1618 This “potential” bicarbonate will be converted back to actual bicarbonate unless it lost in the urine. "

    http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/20/4/692.full
     
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  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Well spotted, @Martial
    The bicarb intervention isn't meant to be done repeatedly. It helps immediately if the problem is high acidity/uric acid.
    Also when the problem abates, there is no sense in doing it anymore. Also decreased acidity can benefit some bacteria. After all, uric acid is an antioxidant.
     

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