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Harvard: Unvaccinated Children Pose Zero Risk 4/29/17 via Your News Wire.com

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by *GG*, May 21, 2017.

  1. *GG*

    *GG* Senior Member

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    Do unvaccinated children pose a higher threat to the public than the vaccinated?

    It is often stated that those who choose not to vaccinate their children for reasons of conscience endanger the rest of the public, and this is the rationale behind most of the legislation to end vaccine exemptions currently being considered by federal and state legislators country-wide.

    You should be aware that the nature of protection afforded by many modern vaccines – and that includes most of the vaccines recommended by the CDC for children – is not consistent with such a statement.

    I have outlined below the recommended vaccines that cannot prevent transmission of disease either because they are not designed to prevent the transmission of infection (rather, they are intended to prevent disease symptoms), or because they are for non-communicable diseases.

    People who have not received the vaccines mentioned below pose no higher threat to the general public than those who have, implying that discrimination against non-immunized children in a public school setting may not be warranted.

    1. IPV (inactivated poliovirus vaccine) cannot prevent transmission of poliovirus. Wild poliovirus has been non-existent in the USA for at least two decades. Even if wild poliovirus were to be re-imported by travel, vaccinating for polio with IPV cannot affect the safety of public spaces. Please note that wild poliovirus eradication is attributed to the use of a different vaccine, OPV or oral poliovirus vaccine. Despite being capable of preventing wild poliovirus transmission, use of OPV was phased out long ago in the USA and replaced with IPV due to safety concerns.
    cont'd

    http://yournewswire.com/harvard-unvaccinated-children-risk/
     
  2. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    Vaccination does not prevent infection. It is supposed to prevent disease and that lowers infection pressure.
     
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  3. JES

    JES Senior Member

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    Vaccination protects the entire population through herd immunity. Once a sufficient % of the population have been vaccinated and acquired immunity, the chains of transmission get eliminated. This also protects the suspectible individuals from getting infected (not only those who have opted not to take the vaccine, but also the children who are too young to be vaccinated or sick individuals who cannot be vaccinated).

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
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  4. lilpink

    lilpink Senior Member

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  5. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    But in most cases the point Obukhanych made was that many modern vaccines are not designed to prevent infection, only symptoms. For instance:

    IPV (inactivated poliovirus vaccine) cannot prevent transmission of poliovirus. Wild poliovirus has been non-existent in the USA for at least two decades. Even if wild poliovirus were to be re-imported by travel, vaccinating for polio with IPV cannot affect the safety of public spaces. Please note that wild poliovirus eradication is attributed to the use of a different vaccine, OPV or oral poliovirus vaccine. Despite being capable of preventing wild poliovirus transmission, use of OPV was phased out long ago in the USA and replaced with IPV due to safety concerns.
    She goes on to say something similar regarding the diptheria toxoid vaccine and acellular pertussus vaccine neither of which, she claims, prevent infection or transmission (it seems the case for the pertussus vaccine might be more ambiguous--perhaps it only prevents infection/transmission for some people?).

    A vaccine that does not prevent infection will not confer herd immunity even if 100% of the people are vaccinated.

    She also makes the case that other vaccines protect us from diseases which are not easily transmitted person-to-person, such as with tetanus. For tetanus, which is contracted from rusty nails and whatnot, herd immunity also doesn't apply. She puts Hep-B in this category as well, which I think is...I see why she does it, but I it's obviously more of a grey area in this regard than tetanus.
     
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  6. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    It's a review of Dr (PhD, not MD) Obukhanych's book. Not having read it, I often can't say how fair the reviewer (Ms. Hall) is. I can make a few observations:

    1. Ms. Hall doesn't address the points I emphasized in the post above, namely that many vaccines do not protect from infection, or protect from infections that are not or not easily passed from human to human. Maybe these points weren't emphasized in the book, I don't know.

    2. Ms. Hall questions whether "Vaccine protection from vaccines doesn’t last as long as immunity from natural infection, immunized people sometimes still get the disease, and vaccines only delay infection until the person is at an age where the infection has more serious consequences." Really? Even vaccine manufacturers only suggest their vaccines work for a certain number of years--that's why people need to get re-vaccinated. Indeed, Ms. Hall makes this point earlier in her review. Natural immunity, on the other hand, often lasts for a lifetime. And it's well-known that measles infections in adulthood, for instance, "tend to be more severe" than in childhood. Perhaps Ms. Hall was making that point that, with repeated re-vaccination it is possible to maintain immunity into adulthood, which would be a reasonable point to make. But she wasn't clear about that.

    3. Ms. Hall disagrees with the assertion that "The immature immune system of infants can’t deal with natural viruses or even with artificially attenuated viruses, but after the age of two children can withstand childhood diseases without complications." But this isn't exactly what Dr. Obukhanych argues, at least not in the short bit that *GG* linked to above. Obukhanych argues that young children's immature immune systems are meant to be assisted by immunoglobulins from their mother's milk, thus bridging the immunologically immature time between birth and toddlerhood, and that the immunoglobulins transmitted from a mother whose immunity is vaccine-derived will (often?) not be sufficient to protect children from infection. All of which is debatable, but please Ms. Hall, don't use a straw-man.

    Obviously I'm not too impressed with sciencebasedmedicine on this one.
     
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  7. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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  8. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    It doesn't but as long as some wildvirus circulates that is not a problem.
     
  9. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    I note disease over time.
    [​IMG]
    Diptheria vaccine was introduced into the US widely around 1947.
    Similar results happened with Measles and mumps.
     
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  10. Kina

    Kina

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    What on earth does this have to do with ME/CFS?

    This forum is for 'health news/research on another topic that you feel has implications for PWCs? Post it here"

    It doesn't seem relevant. This website is not for those with agenda's. We will delete any posts not having any implications for ME/CFS.
     
  11. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    I agree. But that doesn't address her contention that this drop in the number of reported diptheria cases was due to fewer people being susceptible to the toxin rather than fewer people contracting diptheria. I didn't mention measles or mumps because as far as I can tell she is of the opinion that the vaccines we currently use prevent transmission.

    I do think the subject of vaccinations are pertinent to discussions of ME/CFS. To quote Charles Shepard:

    Also see this paper titled Alleged Link between Hepatitis B Vaccine and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

    Both of which I took from @Hip 's ME/CFS Roadmap.

    I got sick within about two or three weeks of getting the Hep B vaccine (among others) in a compressed schedule. Although I currently hope Shoemaker's CIRS theory will explain my ME/CFS, I don't discount the possibility that the vaccinations were the/a culprit.
     
  12. Kina

    Kina

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    Of course discussions of how vaccines might be related to the development of ME/CFS are acceptable, I am referring to general discussions that have absolutely nothing to do with ME/CFS that are posted with an obvious agenda. Really with this kind of thinking we could turn the forums into a free for all about anything because you could associate ME/CFS to anything.
     
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  13. IThinkImTurningJapanese

    IThinkImTurningJapanese Moderator

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    It's not very helpful for you to exaggerate the issue.

    A free for all ? o_O

    There are serious concerns about whether vaccinations are detrimental for those of us suffering with ME/CFS. Discussion of the possibility that the dangers of vaccine avoidance, have been exaggerated, are quite relevant to ME/CFS in my opinion. ;)
     
  14. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    I note a study of 'pandemic' influenza in norway, and the vaccine for this.
    It found that ME/CFS was triggered by the actual virus, not the vaccination.
    (in that, it was at least one trigger).
    If you were vaccinated, you had a significantly lower risk of developing CFS in the time-period of the vaccination and circulating illness.

    So, from a 'developing CFS' risk point of view, for common infections, even if the rate of CFS due to a vaccine is not zero, you may be better off having it than not, because you are more likely to get CFS if you are not vaccinated.
     
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  15. aaron_c

    aaron_c Senior Member

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    Hi Kina. First, let me just say that I'm glad that yall are working to curate the form and prevent it from ballooning everywhere. It's one of the things that keeps phoenixrising so healthy.

    Back to your comment: I agree that vaccines are a grey area. The most-mentioned vaccine with ME/CFS is Hep-B and we've only brushed what Obukhanych said about it. Ditto for the flu vaccine that Charles Shepard mentions. At the same time, I know that vaccinations are something that we can be encouraged to get from time to time. Part of the reason we are encouraged to do so is "herd immunity." Obukhanych suggests that for some vaccines, the case for this may not be as strong as we have been led to believe. This would impact my thinking on whether, for instance, I should be vaccinated in order to protect children that I might come into contact with.

    Whatever you decide on this, thanks for all you do.
     

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