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Harvard Trained Immunologist Demolishes CA Legislation That Terminates Vax Exemptions 2016 Circle of

*GG*

senior member
Messages
6,389
Location
Concord, NH
The government does admit that all vaccines are not safe for some people. If you read the inserts of vaccines you will see where pharmaceutical companies list all the known risks.

Yes, and on the whole, I'm sure the Public Health people use the word "safe when out peddling there reasons to get vaccinated. Outbreaks and Flu season as examples of when they would say this.

GG

PS I had some weird symptoms a few years before I came down with this illness. I was healthy before, not much of a medical record before that. Do you think I would get any money for damages I probably suffered? I know there is a large fund for this. Lawyers, feel free to contact me!

I had the Flu bad one winter, so I figured I should get the flu shot, that winter I would come home and crash hard for 12 hours about 1 night a week. I changed the area I was living in, continued to get the flu shot with my new employer, talked with a women that was helping to administer the process, she said the same happened to her. Is this significant? Not sure :)
 

Undisclosed

Senior Member
Messages
10,157
Yes, and on the whole, I'm sure the Public Health people use the word "safe when out peddling there reasons to get vaccinated. Outbreaks and Flu season as examples of when they would say this.

GG

PS I had some weird symptoms a few years before I came down with this illness. I was healthy before, not much of a medical record before that. Do you think I would get any money for damages I probably suffered? I know there is a large fund for this. Lawyers, feel free to contact me!

I had the Flu bad one winter, so I figured I should get the flu shot, that winter I would come home and crash hard for 12 hours about 1 night a week. I changed the area I was living in, continued to get the flu shot with my new employer, talked with a women that was helping to administer the process, she said the same happened to her. Is this significant? Not sure :)

As a Registered Nurse who used to do many many vaccinations, I used to warn patients of possible side-effects which are mostly rare but do happen. Didn't sugar coat it. Vaccinations are known to be unsafe for some and there is an avenue for complaint in the USA, so why not put in a complaint. The risks in the case of vaccinations do not outweigh the benefits for the general population.
 

*GG*

senior member
Messages
6,389
Location
Concord, NH
As a Registered Nurse who used to do many many vaccinations, I used to warn patients of possible side-effects which are mostly rare but do happen. Didn't sugar coat it. Vaccinations are known to be unsafe for some and there is an avenue for complaint in the USA, so why not put in a complaint. The risks in the case of vaccinations do not outweigh the benefits for the general population.

Well this is at least 15 years ago. Don't know the Lot # etc..

GG
 
Messages
8
Speaking of rhetoric...perhaps equating a theory or an argument to a myth - straight out of the starting gates - is a wee strong.

If a theory/argument has no scientific basis, I think it's fair to call it a myth.

Here is how two different dictionaries define the word 'myth':
1. an idea or story that is believed by many people but that is not true (Merriam-Webster)
2. a widely held but false belief or idea (Oxford)

But if you can suggest a better word for a theory that has no truth or validity to it, I'm open to ideas. ;)

Just out of interest, where is your second David Gorski quote from?

Forgot to include the link, sorry about that. Here is the blog post the quote was taken from.

You're basically saying that if a scientist attempts to have a civil conversation about a specific issue (mandatory carpet-bombing style vaccination), he/she is in reality an evil handlebar mustache-twisting anti-vaxxer (as per your snarky citation) trying to put all society at risk of killer epidemics... congrats for the twisted logic.

Except that's not what I was saying at all. Thank you for putting words in my mouth and then congratulating me for the "twisted logic" though. I have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion when I specifically said that anti-vaxxers are more interested in fear-mongering and spreading propaganda than vaccine safety.

Let me make it crystal clear: I do not think anyone is purposely "trying to put all society at risk of killer epidemics". Only a psychopath would do that, and the anti-vaccination movement seems to be mostly made up of parents who just want to do the best thing for their kid(s). That includes Obukhanych.

But fear-mongering--whatever her intentions--is still fear-mongering. All the good intentions in the world won't change the fact that she is spreading dangerous myths that lead to naive parents making misinformed choices, which in turn leads to falling immunization rates, a breakdown in herd immunity, and outbreaks of all these awful diseases that were mostly eliminated due to mass vaccination campaigns. Again, I am not saying that's the outcome they're hoping for, but it will happen if we let the them and their beliefs go unchallenged because we don't want to infringe on their ~right to choose~ or whatever.

The point I was trying to make was that the arguments she makes in her open letter are, at the very least, intellectually dishonest. She takes a kernel of truth (i.e., quote-mining studies where a vaccine was shown to not be 100% safe or 100% effective) and, to quote David Gorski, exaggerates "far beyond what the scientific data will support". Some of the things she says are just straight up fiction. At the same time, she glosses over the very real risks that come with the diseases that these vaccines prevent and barely touches on all the benefits of mass vaccination campaigns. She misrepresents the evidence and then creates doubt where none exists.

It's disingenuous and misleading as it gives the impression that there is a legitimate controversy surrounding the safety and efficacy of vaccines when there simply isn't. This kind of fear-mongering is a lot more subtle than others, which is why I felt it was necessary to warn everyone that they should be reading this letter with a critical eye (i.e., not take her claims at face value) by pointing out some of the red flags of anti-vaccine rhetoric.

There are responsible and constructive ways to discuss issues in vaccine safety (no one is denying that they exist), but that's not what Obukhanych is doing here. She was taking the "vaccines do more harm than the diseases they supposedly prevent" approach, which is reckless and reprehensible, regardless of her intentions.
 
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duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
@silverspeck , no, myth is inappropriate if only by virtue of those definitions you nicely provided. Of course there is science to support the positions you disagree with; you just don't seem to feel that science or its conclusions are compelling enough. I fear, however, you are indulging yourself at the expense of an honest discussion. If you want to claim there is an error in logic, that is different, imo.

Besides, you seem to be missing many of the main concerns expressed by people whose positions you seek to denigrate.

For instance, individuals object to not being informed of all the risks, or of all the importantly relevant efficacy stats (does it work 99%, 80%, 75%; are all strains impacted, etc). If I expose myself to a vaccine that clearly will be influencing my immune system, I want to know if it is only effective against a single strain of a disease that has 300 strains, and that it only carries a 75% efficacy for that single strain, and maybe needs a a booster...Multiply parallel concerns by how many vaccines? You get the idea?

You speak of disingenuousness; the irony is striking, as this has been claimed to be a core issue concerning some manufacturers of vaccines, as well as their key "supporters".

Many, too, believe that vaccines can serve a good purpose, just not all vaccines at such an exposed age for infants and toddlers - or anyone whose immune system may not be fully developed or operational.

And then there is the notion that any govt should have the right to impose its will about the health of a purported majority of its citizens at the expense of the minority. Although this reflects democracy in its undiluted form, I think it also speaks to a darker and more dangerous aspect.

This is not a black and white argument.
 
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Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
And then there is the notion that any govt should have the right to impose its will about the health of a purported majority of its citizens at the expense of the minority.

Yes. Also its the government effectively who get to make the claim of who qualifies for the minority at the same time that they have the liability upon themselves for any damage caused to that minority and admit to that damage.
 
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PeterPositive

Senior Member
Messages
1,426
Th

That article is over 20 years old. Are we still using the same vaccine and vaccine schedule?
Yes the so called paradox is still present. In fact one of the author of the study I posted also authored this recent study where it documents, among other things, cases of measles even in people immunized two times.

In fact, as of September 2011, the U.S. has had 15 measles outbreaks with 211 confirmed cases—the highest number of cases since 1996

Multiple studies demonstrate that 2–10% of those immunized with two doses of measles vaccine fail to develop protective antibody levels, and that immunity can wane over time and result in infection (so-called secondary vaccine failure) when the individual is exposed to measles.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3905323/
 
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barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
Here is a great source about the California mandate.

http://www.nvic.org/Vaccine-Laws/state-vaccine-requirements/california.aspx

If I read this correctly, the mandate basically tightenes the requirements for vaccine exemptions for institutions such as schools, day care centers, health workers where it's already required to be vaccinated.. You can appeal these decisions.

It doesn't mean very citizen will be unwillingly dragged by the feet and forced to be vaccination.

ETA
In fact, as of September 2011, the U.S. has had 15 measles outbreaks with 211 confirmed cases—the highest number of cases since 1996
.
These conclusions are from 2011 and things have changed since then. For example the Disneyland outbreak of measles.
 
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Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
Here is a great source about the California mandate.

http://www.nvic.org/Vaccine-Laws/state-vaccine-requirements/california.aspx

If I read this correctly, the mandate basically tightenes the requirements for vaccine exemptions for institutions such as schools, day care centers, health workers where it's already required to be vaccinated.. You can appeal these decisions.

It doesn't mean very citizen will be unwillingly dragged by the feet and forced to be vaccination.

I think everyone realises that Barb. Unfortunately this is not always the case in places like Africa.
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
Thanks for the link to RationalWiki. Not wanting to derail the thread or change the subject, but just noticed they have a truly horrendous entry for chronic fatigue syndrome:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome

I've heard how awful this is so have never read it. Maybe I should. But the timing as far as my mood/fog has to be perfect as I'd probably throw my tablet at the wall and I don't have the money to replace it.:D
 

IreneF

Senior Member
Messages
1,552
Location
San Francisco
Because the measles vaccine is not 100% effective 100% of the time doesn't mean it hasn't been effective overall. From Wikipedia:

"The measles vaccine is effective at preventing the disease. Vaccination has resulted in a 75% decrease in deaths from measles between 2000 and 2013 with about 85% of children globally being currently vaccinated. No specific treatment is available. Supportive care may improve outcomes.[4]This may include giving oral rehydration solution (slightly sweet and salty fluids), healthy food, and medications to control the fever.[4][5] Antibioticsmay be used if a secondary bacterial infection such as pneumonia occurs. Vitamin A supplementation is also recommended in the developing world.[4]

Measles affects about 20 million people a year,[1] primarily in the developing areas of Africa and Asia.[4] It causes the most vaccine-preventable deaths of any disease.[8] It resulted in about 96,000 deaths in 2013, down from 545,000 deaths in 1990.[9] In 1980, the disease is estimated to have caused 2.6 million deaths per year.[4] Before immunization in the United States between three and four million cases occurred each year.[6] Most of those who are infected and who die are less than five years old.[4] The risk of death among those infected is usually 0.2%,[6] but may be up to 10% in those who have malnutrition.[4] It is not believed to affect other animals.[4]
Note that the toll is greatest among preschoolers.

 

geraldt52

Senior Member
Messages
602
...For instance, individuals object to not being informed of all the risks, or of all the importantly relevant efficacy stats (does it work 99%, 80%, 75%; are all strains impacted, etc). If I expose myself to a vaccine that clearly will be influencing my immune system, I want to know if it is only effective against a single strain of a disease that has 300 strains, and that it only carries a 75% efficacy for that single strain, and maybe needs a a booster...Multiply parallel concerns by how many vaccines? You get the idea?

You speak of disingenuousness; the irony is striking, as this has been claimed to be a core issue concerning some manufacturers of vaccines, as well as their key "supporters".

Many, too, believe that vaccines can serve a good purpose, just not all vaccines at such an exposed age for infants and toddlers - or anyone whose immune system may not be fully developed or operational.

And then there is the notion that any govt should have the right to impose its will about the health of a purported majority of its citizens at the expense of the minority. Although this reflects democracy in its undiluted form, I think it also speaks to a darker and more dangerous aspect...

I wish I could do more than just "like" this...that is just so inadequate.

There are vaccines I can clearly deem worth the risk, and there are vaccines I can clearly deem not worth the risk. The last people I want making those decisions for me are the incompetents populating the likes of the CDC, etc.
 

*GG*

senior member
Messages
6,389
Location
Concord, NH

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barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
Many, too, believe that vaccines can serve a good purpose, just not all vaccines at such an exposed age for infants and toddlers - or anyone whose immune system may not be fully developed or operational
Some parents want their children to get separate shots spaced out instead of a vaccine that has the combined vaccines such as DPT. The irony is that if you believe there are toxins, mercury,whatever, in the vaccine that are harmful, each shot contains the same amount of these substances so the child ends up getting more of what the parent believes is dangerous.

If you delay the vaccinations, then you are putting that child at risk for catching the diseases the vaccines will fight.

There is science behind the schedule and safety of vaccines. It's not an arbitrary system. There are checks and balances to monitor the safety as well as the schedule of vaccinations. One agency is the Vaccine Data Base as described below. I also have a link that explains the process used to determine the optimal times when a child should get vaccinated. I can't find it at the moment but hopefully will and post it.

The Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) is a collaborative project between CDC's Immunization Safety Office and nine health care organizations. The VSD started in 1990 and continues today in order to monitor safety of vaccines and conduct studies about rare and serious adverse events following immunization.

The VSD uses electronic health data from each participating site. This includes information on vaccines - the kind of vaccine that is given to each patient, date of vaccination, and other vaccinations given on the same day. The VSD also uses information on medical illnesses that have been diagnosed at doctors’ offices, urgent care visits, emergency department visits and hospital stays. The VSD conducts vaccine safety studies based on questions or concerns raised from the medical literature and reports to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). When there are new vaccines that have been recommended for use in the United States or if there are changes in how a vaccine is recommended, the VSD will monitor the safety of these vaccines.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vsd/

While no system is completely foolproof, it's impressive that these agencies exist to reduce harm associated with vaccines. At least as much as possible. There's a lot of effort happening behind the scenes and not everyone is aware of this.