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Hair Mineral Testing

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by Dog Person, Mar 10, 2012.

  1. Jarod

    Jarod Senior Member

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    I take most of my vitamins seperately. That way I know what might be doing what. B6 makes me feel terrible and I can not tolerate.

    To dog person:

    In my experience while doing methylation, one vitamin or mineral as a co-factor can make a difference.

    I hope you are on to something in the bigger overall picture.

    Thanks!

    Edit: I want to add my standard disclaimer: I think everybody is different and will respond differently to different treatments. probably No silver bullet for everybody... :O)
  2. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    It might change how you viewed and consequently dealt with the risks.

    But if you read your paticular motorcycle, after given some superduper additive, blew up at eighty mph you might be more inclined to obey the speed limit.

    It may turn out to be more risky simply because it interacts and is involved with more vitamins and minerals than is typical.
  3. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I am not suggesting people start experimenting.

    If you regard taking B2 as more risky than, say taking B12 and folate on a methylation protocol, you are very welcome to abstain.

    I have done more dangerous and reckless things in life than taking B2. I take full responsibility for any adverse effects that might occur.
  4. Dog Person

    Dog Person *****

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    People that try to help, that are not out to gain financially, are people that I call caregivers. We all want to be cared for and having someone that cares is what love is all about. Dogs are used as care givers in the therapy programs because they give unconditional love. Being a caregiver does not mean you are perfect or know everything. Knowledge is always gained. Decisions are made at the time, based on the best knowledge that is available. It may even be harmful, but at the time the decision was made, that was the extent of knowledge. So people like Fredd and Rich should be admired and thanked because they care, not because they are perfect or possess all knowledge. As long as we live, and until we can create a human being from dust, we will continue to learn how the human body functions and make mistakes along the way gaining that knowledge.

    To those of you that want to complain, argue, insist on answers or references and constantly justify your actions, I say this; you are very nutritionally out of balance people. You need care. Your body has you in a state of fight or flight, trying to get you out there to find the needed nutrients it wants to continue living. I do understand this personality, as my mother was this way her entire life. So you have my caring because Ive come to understand what causes these responses. I never could help my mother, but I hope I can help others. I know that I dont have all the answers, but maybe enough to help people move through life in a way that they can enjoy the good times when they come.

    Brenda, Im very happy for you that much is improving. Biotin is needed for healthy skin, hair and nails. Biotin needs certain enzymes to function in the skin that manganese helps to activate. By using the B2 it has allowed your liver to let you use the little manganese that is in the liver. http://www.biotin.com/skin/biotin-is-necessary-for-healthy-skin. This could be why your skin feels better.

    Biotin and manganese or magnesium are needed in an enzyme reaction that uses another enzyme called pyruvate decarboxylase. This enzyme is critical for the energy citric acid cycle.

    Pyruvate carboxylase (PC) is an enzyme of the ligase class that catalyzes the (depending on the species) irreversible carboxylation of pyruvate to form oxaloacetate (OAA). It is an important anaplerotic reaction that provides oxaloacetate precursor for the citric acid cycle. The enzyme is a mitochondrial protein containing a biotin prosthetic group, requiring magnesium or manganese and acetyl CoA, and occurs in liver but not in muscle.[1]
    1. ^ a b c PDB 2QF7; Jitrapakdee S, St Maurice M, Rayment I, Cleland WW, Wallace JC, Attwood PV (August 2008). "Structure, mechanism and regulation of pyruvate carboxylase". Biochem. J. 413 (3): 36987. doi:10.1042/BJ20080709. PMC 2859305. PMID 18613815.

    So when you start adding B2 to run the citric acid cycle, your body now says we need more manganese (Mn) or magnesium (Mg) to run this reaction. Every hair chart shows very low levels of manganese and magnesium. So if you ask this system to go too quickly by taking large amounts of B2, without allowing adequate supply of these minerals from food sources, you can suffer deficiency symptoms of those minerals.

    When manganese levels drop, every organ and muscle in the body can malfunction (as well as sugar regulation and cartilage growth). This is because there are structures in each organ called endoplasmic reticulums. They will get swollen and elongated and malfunction without adequate manganese. This can lead to an endless list of adverse symptoms, even death. I have seen this occur when working with the Bedlington Terriers that were so terribly deficient in manganese and overloaded with iron (as shown on their liver biopsies). As iron goes high, manganese goes low; this is how the body works due to the transport mechanisms in the intestines.

    So to Rand56 I say this, vitamins and minerals are powerful not something to play with lightly. You can read from the experts that there are no adverse reactions and no known side effects, thus no upper limit has been set by the Food and Nutrition Board for riboflavin. Those studies were done on healthy lab animals not people that have high levels of some minerals and deficiency of others. I will tell you that I undertook trying to correct my high levels of iron using very high levels of B2 supplements every hour all day and half of the night. At first I noticed I could not fall asleep until late at night. I attributed this to removing lots of iron and interrupting my sleep cycle. So I continued. Then I noticed I was becoming very upset over things that normally would not bother me and my skin started to break out again and itch. My hair started to turn dry and white along the edges, a sure sign of stress. Then I was more tired when taking my dogs for their walks up the hills and Id see shiny lights in my vision a sign of low blood sugar. Next, I started to feel hot again when stressed. Finally my right arm biceps hurt so badly I could not bear to use it and my left knee and right sciatic nerve became so painful I could barely walk without hobbling. This was nearly unbelievable to me because high doses of B2 were safe werent they? After that I did lots more reading, searching and trying to understand the interactions between vitamins and minerals.

    I did the same thing at the same time with my dogs since they too had been diagnosed with high iron. I gave them B2 and they seemed so much better. So I gave them more B2 and more and more, wanting their high iron to come down. My expert graduate level world renowned nutrition professor told me you never need to supplement manganese so I was not. Poor Nestle and Louie started having trouble breathing when running in the heat. Then Nestle started to become afraid of things again. She started to exhibit schizophrenic tendencies and finally their stools turned completely yellow. This is a sign that they were not putting enough bilirubin into the stools and/or not converting the bilirubin in the intestines to dark brown due to low manganese. It took a couple of days supplementing 200% of their daily requirement for manganese to bring them back to my happy dogs.

    So please take it from someone that has been her own guinea pig low doses of B2, say 300-400% of the daily requirement work best all round.
    merylg and CJB like this.
  5. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    I appreciate your efforts to help Dog Person, but I don't think arguing or asking for references means that I am nutritionally out of balance or in a state of fight or flight. I may be, but none of the extensive tests I've had give any indication that I am, and asking for evidence isn't an indicator of nutritional imbalances or being in fight or flight. As others have pointed out we have to be our own doctors with this illness, and weigh the evidence for and against different explanations in order to judge how far particular treatment suggestions might be helpful. I and others have been doing that for decades. And I think it's unlikely that sufferers have particular personality traits in common.

    Jenny
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  6. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Dog Person, if I understand you correctly, you're suggesting dosing B2 in the order of 300-400% RDA, which is something like 5mg daily?
  7. Dog Person

    Dog Person *****

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    Jenny,

    If I take your post literally - then nothing is wrong with you since all the extensive tests you've had run say this. Your knowledge of what I know is limited, thus your statements. I am sad for this. You think I am wrong, that you can not be in a state of fight of flight but this is what occurs when anything happens to the body - from mental, physical or emotional. Iron is used in white blood cells to fight infection. Copper is used to access oxygen for fleeing. I can't change the laws of nature - this is how it works.

    If I took what you said to heart, I would just leave and not say anymore.
    brenda and CJB like this.
  8. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I am an academic by trade. I am trained to research and evaluate data and evidence, and ask critical questions to theories that are presented. As jenny said, we might be in a state of fight or flight, but that is not why I am discussing the current ideas presented on this board.

    I do it because I have not been helped by the medical professionals I have seen, and therefore see no other option than to evaluate the evidence for myself, so that I can choose the course of action with the highest chance of success.

    If we did no evaluation we would just be trying treatments at random, and crystal healing would be just as valid as hair mineral analysis.
  9. Dog Person

    Dog Person *****

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    Amount of B2

    Adreno,

    I don't mind if you ask me questions and want to learn what I think I know, it's when you keep telling me I'm wrong that makes it difficult to understand how you want to learn?

    This is what my professor of nutrition suggests for correcting a deficiency of B2. If this much causes adverse symptoms, then try less.

    Many of you have sent me private messages listing all the things you currently take. Some of those lists are extensive. Medications are designed to alter the balance of your vitamins and minerals - this is how they effect health changes. Antibiotics force the body to use iron to fight bacterial infections. Hormones govern vitamins and mineral. Thyroid hormone increases the conversion of B2 to it's enzyme form. Supplements you take are altering your balance of other vitamins and minerals all the time. So for me to say - everyone take that percentage of B2 and it will be fine is impossible when adding it to so many other things.

    Here is another example, B2 works in synergy with zinc. If you are very deficient in copper and you start retaining more zinc and releasing lots of zinc from within RBC's you could lower that copper level to much with that amount of B2. So less would be required in that case.

    If you had very high iron stored in the liver and released much into the bloodstream, but still the liver could not make enough transferrin to transport it or you did not have a good Na/K balance to keep the iron bound to transferrin, then you would place yourself in a very high cancer trend and that's not good either. 23 out of 28 hair tests indicated an inversion of Na to K. This is almost never a correct pH in the bloodstream when you see this on a hair chart. These people are the ones that find supplementing potassium helps, because it is too low at a cellular level and your body is loosing it.

    I hope you see why I can not give a "stamp" answer to all. I'm not trying to be evasive, it's just each person eats different foods, takes different things that either increase or decrease other nutrients. Though everyone's body functions the same, heart pumps, liver and kidneys filter, adrenals manage the kidneys and produce hormones, lungs exchange oxygen, each body will require a slight adjustment depending on their particular balance at the time they start B2.

    I'll say it again, that is why I use hair charts. They give a strong indication of what the status of each mineral is.
    merylg and taniaaust1 like this.
  10. alwayshopeful

    alwayshopeful

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    DogPerson,
    When I posted my hair analysis test, I forgot to answer your questions. I was not taking B12 at the time. I do not completely avoid sugar, but it is very limited. Thanks
  11. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Hi Dog Person--

    I am one of those many people. At this point I have no idea how to proceed with B2, so I have put it on the back burner for now.

    I can't just stop taking some of the herbs and supplements that are working for me, to help me manage certain severe symptoms, and I don't know if or how they might interfere or interact with B2...? Or how much B2 is optimal for me. In order to figure that out, I am going to have to experiment with the dosage of the B2, which I am not up for right now.

    In my very limited experience with the B2, I have already seen how potent it is at pulling lead and iron out of my system. That was a bit rough, and I am unsure how low I will need to go to find an ideal dose that doesn't stress my system in the way that my first attempts taking it did.


    To Everyone else (and DP included)--

    I also need to find a source of electrolytes, that has a good mix including potassium, because I need both potassium and magnesium to manage my PVC's. I was drinking 4-6 packs of Emergen-C/day, but now that I see that it contains a mix of things that might interfere with B2, including folic acid, I feel like I should find another source. If someone has an idea about this, please let me know.
  12. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    Dog Person you said....

    ".......it's when you keep telling me I'm wrong that makes it difficult to understand how you want to learn?"

    I could be wrong but I don't believe anyone has been telling you that you are wrong. Us asking questions and/or asking you to cite references doesn't mean at all that we think you are wrong. People hear stuff and logically we would like some substantiation to what is being said. If someone told you something new, wouldn't you want to see if that information is documented elsewhere, so you could feel more comfortable about what is being said to you? Contrary to what you may think about us, we do have enough brain energy to ask relevant questions and I totally back what Jenny said. Maybe you are on to some new information that is not documented elsewhere as of yet. I don't know, I have not taken the time to research everything you have said.

    Most here have given you the benefit of the doubt, so it would be nice if you could return that favor by giving us the benefit of the doubt that we have enough brain energy to ask relevant questions.

    I look forward to hearing more "on topic" information that you know.
    CJB, Valentijn, ahimsa and 1 other person like this.
  13. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi Adreno,

    Your criteria for value of studies is flawed, its almost identical to that of evidence based medicine, and so has the same issues - its highly flawed and biased by existing methodological limitations. I am writing a book on this at the moment. It is certainly not consistent with critical rationalism.

    The main problem is that BAD RCTs can be considered as better than good clinical experience, or worse, excellent case studies. Anecdotal is more problematic though, on that I agree. Bad RCTs win because they get the rubber stamp of RCT approval ... they are not being examined critically enough. Its a failure in the entire evidence based medicine approach.

    Another problem is distortion of the evidence base. Most RCTs are done by BIG companies pushing their products. They flood the research with their own studies. Independent RCTs are not very common and hard to find funding for. This is called Zombie Science, and is compounded by bureaucrats pushing evidence based medicine based on management criteria, not scientific criteria.

    I too benefited from B2 back when I was testing vitamins on myself, back in the 90s. I am less than convinced it will help all of us though, but I agree with you that since it is cheap and very safe its worth trying. I do however think it is more likely to be treating peripheral metabolic deficits, not the cause/s. As nearly always, we need more research.

    On hair mineral analysis I would provide my results but I have lost them. I do recall that my iron was normal and my arsenic very high, almost dangerous. Yet I have borderline haemochromatosis. I cannot excrete iron via normal means, only blood loss. I have yet to research B2 and treating haemochromatosis, I am currently researching folic acid issues. Supplemental folic acid is looking like it might not be fully converted in 4 out of 5 people and accumulates. It then competes with methyl folate via competitive inhibition. The rise in supplementation historically matches the rise in many disease with folate deficiency symptoms. I am not saying there is a connection, I am saying its worth investigating. Supplemental folic acid might be a collossal disaster, we need quality science to determine this.

    To underscore this, accumulated folic acid suppresses NK cell cytotoxicity, an extremely common symptom in ME. This is an empirical finding, I don't know the mechanism though I might speculate.

    Bye, Alex
    merylg likes this.
  14. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Alex, I consider myself open minded. I am not saying we should blindly accept data, only on the basis of it coming out of a RCT. We have to look closely at methodology, and results have to be reproducible.

    There are problems with evidence based medicine, of that I agree. Zombie science, ghost writers, Kuhn's paradigms, aso. I never claimed it was perfect.

    But how can we evaluate clinical experience in a meaningful way? I am interested in this, as I know very little about it. If it's just anecdotal evidence, relayed from doctors and patients, then we're in the same mess.

    Maybe you could point me to some ressource, or we could discuss it elsewhere?
    ahimsa and Jenny like this.
  15. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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  16. Dog Person

    Dog Person *****

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    I do NOT agree with the sites that Kina has listed. This is her words, not mine.

    Your statement has really upset me. You could cause harm to people here if they went to these sites and tried what those people suggest because they think I believe in them! Had you considered this? I don't even know what to say at this point.
    merylg likes this.
  17. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    I'm glad to hear this... because that guy Wilson is a bit extreme in many of his views, very negative and critical about many healing modalities (herbs, acupuncture, yoga), ultra conservative and a bit fanatic in his politics, only minimally educated about ME/CFS, and DEFINITELY not someone I would consider turning to for advice or guidance. It sounds like he could probably use some serious mineral (and attitude!) re-balancing himself.

    There is at least one idea of his I do like: HINTS FOR THINKING CORRECTLY: "Dont be too sure about anything."

    Though really, Dog Person, it would be good to know whose work YOU DO base your theories on. If you could provide that yourself, then maybe others won't jump to conclusions that aren't accurate. TRANSPARENCY can be a very helpful thing.
  18. Kina

    Kina Moderation Team Lead

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    Dog Person.

    I was trying to give the forum information that was missing. I am not trying to discredit you.

    I have spoken with a bit of knowledge actually. I have seen your website, I have actually watched a few of your interviews -- watched one this morning -- a radio interview -- number one of three -- where you discussed what led you to start doing hair analysis. I have read all your posts on this forum and your statements and theories do seem to be derived from the work of Dr Lawrence Wilson. Your website makes definite statements regarding "Nutritional Balancing", eg "Nutritional balancing based on hair mineral analysis." After reading your posts and his website/research, I see many similarities. If I am wrong here, maybe provide an explanation why I am your work is not based on the work of Dr Lawrence Wilson.

    I did say your work seems to be based on his research, not that you agree with all he says. Many researchers take and expand on the research of others.

    Thank you.
  19. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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  20. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    Neither do I, I went to her website and didn't find any references that would make me think that...??

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