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Had to call an ambulance because potassium got so low...

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by snowathlete, Feb 23, 2012.

  1. baccarat

    baccarat Senior Member

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    Thanks for your post, Rich.
    I had been taking 2mg of hydroxy B12 plus 2mg of mb12 daily without any apparent problem, except for occasional panic attacks/ hypoglycemic episodes so I have now decided to slow things down and will stick to the basic protocol.

    Snowathlete, are you sure it wasn't hypoglycemia?
    Since doing the protocol I have never experienced low potassium symptoms as described elsewhere.
    At times, however, I have felt over-energised and restless which I think may have pressurised my adrenals causing hypoglycemic / panic attacks kind of reactions, particularly at night.
    It usually got better after eating something sweet.
  2. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    No, It wasnt hypoglycemia; I've had that before and it was very very different. I'm certain it was low potassium.
  3. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Bluestem,

    Somebody recommended this meter, here, but I can't remember the thread. Horiba's website has instructions for reading saliva, including a web link to translate the meter's potassium reading into the blood level equivalent.

    The meter comes with calibrating solutions.

    I'm getting readings of 10, 11, and 12 x 100, which translate to about 3.6-3.75 blood level readings.
  4. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    I have to say, im pretty interested in these meters. When you take potassium how long does it take to show up on the meter?
  5. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I have no idea. I hope somebody has experimented with this, and will jump in. My readings aren't changing much no matter what I do.
  6. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Rich
    If folks have rock bottom lithium, they are going to have problems iutilizing any hydroxocobalamin, aren't they, given that lithium is needed for B12 transport?
    I think you need to address this, as there seems to be some anecdotal evidence that some (many?) have low lithium.
    It would be very discouraging to take tons of hydroxocobalamin and see little or no results because of this issue.
    Thanks.
  7. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem Senescent on the Illinois prairie, USA

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    Do you still have the address for the instructions for reading saliva? That is what I was trying to find the other day, but failed.

    How easy is the meter to use? Do you have previous experience with using this type of equipment?
  8. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Here's the link for saliva testing: http://hkpp.org/test-K-cardy-meter

    I had no experience with this kind of equipment. It's very easy to use, but the initial calibration was confusing for my fuzzy brain.

    It's important to calibrate it daily (you put 2 drops of their solution on it, and the readout should say 20x100.......super easy), so make sure you get the kit with extra solution. On Amazon US this package was cheaper than just the meter (!).
  9. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, AQ.

    I did a literature search for lithium and B12. There does seem to be evidence that lithium is involved in the transport of B12. However, I haven't been able to find any details about the mechanism, or where it is effective, i.e. in the absorption by the gut, or across cell membranes or across the blood-brain barrier. I would like to know more about this. I like to believe that I understand a phenomenon, at least to some degree, before I recommend making use of it. On the other hand, if reasonable dosages of lithium orotate are taken, they should be O.K. You are probably aware that there have been deaths from accidental overdose of lithium carbonate, which is used to treat bipolar disorder. That makes me cautious about recommending lithium until I have a better understanding of it.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  10. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    maddie can you give me the link to the amazon US site please. I don't think I will buy one but it would be interesting to see the price This was it when I last posted about it.

    Cardy c-131 potassium meter

    Buy in the USA - $239 = 151
    Buy in the UK - 240 = $378
  11. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Ok, fair enough. I do *seem* to get greater bang for my buck when I take a tab of lithium with my hydroxy shot,but I haven't tested yet to see if that's the case. Not sure what I would test so I'll probably skip that. I have done blood lithium tests so I know I am deficient.

    Thanks for your reply.
  12. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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  13. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Is it possible to quantify what is meant by "high dosages" of methyl B12 and methyl folate?

    I have been trying to find the rough amounts to work up to for Freddd's protocol without much success by going through old posts. The last I found was that people generally worked up to 3 or 4 of the Jarrow 5 mg methyl B12 tablets daily. I would consider that to be a large dose...but what about 5 mg/10 mg/15mg? Where does the danger with low potassium begin and does it get exponentially higher as the doses get higher?

    Also, I started Deplin at 7.5 mg based on earlier posts as well and now am thinking I should go back to the 800 mcg capsules. Is the thinking that the Deplin doses are "high" doses as well?

    Is it possible to get some sort of feedback from others to see the range of amounts that people are taking? If this has been done already, my apologies, and please point me to it!

    Thanks, Ema

  14. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Ema,

    You will find a huge range of dosages here. I am one of a few people using very low doses of mb12. Freddd uses very high doses to get the mb12 into his CNS. The dose you start at depends on your sensitivity and your goals, and it's important to understand the protocol before you start, in my opinion.

    I'm not trying to work up to any particular dose. I'm taking 250mcg of mb12 a day, and am getting excellent results. I don't see any reason to increase the dose unless I start losing ground.

    Is there a reason that you want to begin, already assuming an endpoint?
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Ema,

    The Metafolin will exist in some kind of balance with the mb12 so needs to some extent depend aqpon capacity to use. Tirtrate the Metafolin to needed effect woth the mb12. I started at 400mcg and titrarted after it becaem more available. It wasn't until I reached larger doses that I got out of paradoxical folate defieincy.

    Where does the danger with low potassium begin and does it get exponentially higher as the doses get higher?

    I've seen the potassium need go up on hydroxycbl. I've seen and experienced a need for potassium at 1000mcg sublingually, perhaps 250mcg absorbed. It switches on apparently with any of several layers of tissue starting to heal; ie epithelium, muscle healing, muscle growing, possibly neurological, blood. It appears to turn on by the layer. The bulk of the need for potassium appears to start right away only increasing a little with increased doses of mb12. It does NOT go exponentially higher. Instead it acts as if approaching a limit.

    As for Metafolin I am at 15,200mcg daily in 5 doses, 4000mcg with each of 2 meals and 2400mcg 3x per day not at meals.
  16. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    I agree that it is important to understand the protocol...unfortunately, that seems to be a bit easier said than done. Ultimately, I think I have a methylation block and I would like to remove it. I thought that there would be *some* level of supps that seem to bring about healing in the majority of people. I'm just trying to understand what those levels might be or at least a range. I would also like to minimize risk of overdriving the methylation cycle and causing myself problems obviously. I hope that answers your question.

    I feel like I am wandering out in the woods so far. I do feel a bit better now after taking the supps for 4-6 weeks but I'm not sure if I'm meant to keep increasing or stay where I am at currently - 10 mg mB12 divided between Jarrow and ET, 7.5 mg Deplin, Douglas B-Complex twice a day. I also take phosphatidyl choline, turmeric, ALA, CoQ10, and Vit D.

    I take a fair bit of potassium already (70 mEQ) due to taking Florinef which is a potassium wasting drug. I get electrolyte labs done every two weeks and my fasting level is always above 4.0 which I would assume would be higher during the day when I have taken the potassium more recently. So I'm not sure how much of a concern I should have for potassium depletion due to methylation. I do have neck/shoulder muscle spasms frequently though dating from well before this protocol and am not sure how to differentiate "normal" muscle spasms for me and ones caused by low potassium.

    I've also been hesitant to raise thyroid meds just in case a sudden surge of methylation starts my thyroid working again...though I have no idea if this is even likely except for a brief mention on one of Rich's posts from several years ago. I'm still hypo though and could probably stand to raise sooner rather than later. I find it all very confusing and now actually a bit anxiety-producing!

    Thanks, Ema
  17. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    Hi Ema, take your time, try not to let it stress yu out. It is confusing and there is a lot of uncertainty with this stuff. Move at whatever pace your comfortable with and keep reading. Every week I learn and understand more and make changes to what I'm doing it based on what's new info for me. For example, I plan to increase my meta folate dose a little over the next week, as I now feel comfortable doing that.

    What would be great is if there were sOme kind of table or database with people's supps and doses recorded so we could all compare. Certainly it's more comfortable increasing to a certain point if you know several others are already there. I don't know if there is any suitable utility on these forums for something like that though - does anyone know?
  18. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Hi, Ema,

    I have a few thoughts, and I hope some will be helpful.

    As far as the potassium issue goes, the danger as I understand it is falling into a rapid decline and not having potassium on hand. In other words, you could not worry about it, and carry potassium with you while you're messing with dosages. If you start feeling profoundly awful, take 500mg of potassium. If low potassium is the problem, you should feel better enough to get yourself home.

    As far as your thyroid is concerned, obviously this is between you and your doctor. But FYI I started taking adrenal supplements before switching to mb12, and I'm still taking those. I haven't needed to change my dose, up or down.

    I can't help at all with best amounts of b12 etc to take. I take a tiny dose of mb12, so all of my experiences will be different from yours. That's the reason there isn't a formula to follow. Our needs are different, and our reactions to these supplements vary widely. There's no way to test (that I've heard of) for where to start, so we each have to figure it out.

    What I've done is start a word file. Every time I read a post with information that is relevant to me, I copy and paste it. Sometimes I make a note of the thread name and post #, or who wrote it. I now have a 16 page disorganized file, but going through it is easier than searching through threads.

    Best of luck,

    Madie
  19. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    Me too. My potassium dropped even when I was just taking 1000 mcg of cyanoB12 and no methylfolate or co-factors at all (because I didn't know then that I had ME, or anything about methylation or better/worse types of B12), so I think it's definitely worth keeping an eye on from the start.
  20. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Has anyone noticed any relationship between potassium deficiency and water retention?

    I recently re-read some info posted on mineral balance for the thyroid by John Johnson at ithyroid.com and he seems to think one of the symptoms of potassium deficiency (other than the rigidity alerted to here) is edema (water retention). Has anyone else noticed this and been able to tie it to potassium deficiency? I wonder if water retention can be an earlier warning than rigidity?

    Although I have always thought heart and kidney issues caused edema. Though potassium surely affects / is affected by such issues...

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