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Gut microbes-pathogenesis of CFS

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Jon_Tradicionali, Jan 13, 2014.

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What do YOU believe to be the cause of CFS?

  1. Viral (HHV6,EBV,Parvovirus)

    45.8%
  2. Gut Microbes

    50.0%
  3. Genetic Defect

    54.2%
  4. Parasites

    12.5%
  5. Diet

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Senior Member

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    Zogor-Ndreaj, Shkodër, Albania
    With the fairly recent widespread diversion on CFS theory of causes and clinical trials focusing on the microbiome, it is only natural to ask, are we getting any closer to finding and treating the culprit(s)?

    PubMed suggests so.

    Pigs fed a steady dose of H202 for 10 days developed CFS.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23365398/?i=7&from=cfs gut

    H202 is the chemical (hydrogen peroxide) that is secreted by certain microbes, even those thought to be non-pathogenic.

    A study using 16s rRNA tech on Belgian and Norwegian patients showed altered gut microflora.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23791918/?i=2&from=cfs gut

    As its now a known fact that gut issues and inflammation can affect the body as a whole backed up once again by this study.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23842110/?i=1&from=cfs gut

    The gut supercedes the viral connection to CFS and has now become the major focus.

    Lipkin and Hornig are currently conducting a large microbiome study and MEassociation are doing one also, just to name a few.



    Please post your thoughts and participate in the poll.
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2014
    snowathlete and Radio like this.
  2. Waverunner

    Waverunner Senior Member

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    Great question. In my eyes CFS is no exception from many other diseases which include far greater heterogeneity, than the medical field currently admits. Breast Cancer is not one disease but at least ten.

    In my eyes most cases of CFS have a genetic and viral cause. A genetic defect makes PWCs prone to certain viral infections. After being infected, the immune system goes in overdrive and slowly wears out over time, while not being able to clear the infection or not being able to return to the normal state. The gut and lots of other organs will be affected by this, so the microbiome and diet can play a very important role as well. They can help to improve symptoms to a high degree but in my eyes they will never be able to clear the cause. On the other side there may be a subgroup of PWCs who may be cured by diet or the right microbiome. It would be so important to differentiate between certain CFS subgroups.
    Nielk likes this.
  3. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    Ontario
  4. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Senior Member

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    Zogor-Ndreaj, Shkodër, Albania
    Listened to a British podcast on CFS last night. It states that CFS is significantly over-represented in ethnic minorities. They said this is mainly due to minorities being more deprived and less able to seek medical assistance on onset of CFS.

    This contrasts a view expressed by an American report I'd read a few months ago which stated that CFS was much more prevalent in white Europeans, especially the Irish or those with close Irish ancestry.

    CFS may just be merciless and affect anyone given the right conditions.
    snowathlete likes this.
  5. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Senior Member

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    Zogor-Ndreaj, Shkodër, Albania
    An interesting extract from a recent study:

    "Increased host inflammation has been shown to provide pathogens with substrates to out-compete more beneficial bacterial species. Our data demonstrate that vitamin D regulates the gut microbiome and that 1,25(OH)2D3 or VDR deficiency results in dysbiosis, leading to greater susceptibility to injury in the gut."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23966330/?i=15&from=bacteria vit d

    Pathogenic bacteria thrives even further when the host (us) is inflamed. A vicious cycle.

    VDR deficiency results in dysbiosis. Apparently...

    Its entirely valid to also say VDR may have lowered at time dysbiosis was caused, but this was secondary
    to a primary offender (e.g. a pathogen of some kind).

    Vitamin D is much higher in populations living in warmer climates. Australia being the perfect example. Yet CFS is prevelent there in large numbers.

    Onwards....
    snowathlete likes this.
  6. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Senior Member

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    A reason why pathogenic bacteria cannot be cleared using antibiotics. In cases that they are cleared, a relapse occurs shortly after:

    "High-dose ciprofloxacin treatment efficiently reduced pathogen loads in feces and most organs. However, the cecum draining lymph node (cLN), the gut tissue, and the spleen retained surviving bacteria. In cLN, approximately 10%-20% of the bacteria remained viable. These phenotypically tolerant bacteria lodged mostly within CD103(+)CX3CR1(-)CD11c(+) dendritic cells, remained genetically susceptible to ciprofloxacin, were sufficient to reinitiate infection after the end of the therapy, and displayed an extremely slow growth rate.....Therefore, slow-growing antibiotic-tolerant bacteria lodged within dendritic cells can explain poor in vivo antibiotic activity and relapse. "

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24558351/?i=2&from=bacteria lymph

    The ability of bacteria to infect the dendritic cells of the gut and thus avoid detection by the immune system is very plausible.

    Dendritic cells are the guts screening system to identify the different bacteriae passing through as pathogenic or non pathogenic.

    For the bacteria to infect these cells provides a perfect explanation why the immune system cannot locate them.

    Onwards...
    Radio likes this.
  7. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Virginia

    I think Scandinavia has to be considered the epicenter of the ME/CFS universe, and those most vulnerable may have descended from there. Actually a related hypothesis involving Vitamin D synthesis and folate availability was proposed a few years back. If true, and provided you think bacterial susceptibility might be a key to ME/CFS, this may help explain why descendents from the North Atlantic region, including our friends down under, are disproportionately affected by ME/CFS. The hypothesis relates to balance between sun exposure, melanin, the synthesis of vitamin D and the oxidation of folate. The author makes an interesting case for natural selection based on the compromise between higher vitamin d synthesis and folate oxidation mediated by skin color and exposure to UV radiation.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...9fxhDiasXii4UhE6Q&sig2=GjYlYJEQ1EtQVuUgBetIsw
    Jon_Tradicionali and Gestalt like this.
  8. BFG

    BFG

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    I have the VDR +/+ mutation. I tested my 25 hydroxy levels and it was 32 in april 2013. I did not take any vitamin d supplements and sunbathed on my whole body for about 10-25 min, 4-5 days per week at noon from may-aug. I tested my levels again and my vitamin d was 32 after all that sun. The sun always boosts my mood considerably, but i guess i cannot synthesize vitamin d from the sun maybe due to my vdrtaq mutation. Oh but i did get a nice tan and sun damage.
    South likes this.
  9. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    IMO you can tick all the boxes. Disease is a complex interactions between genotype and the environment, and do rarely have single causes. Genetic mutations, stress, diet, gut dysbiosis and pathogens all interact to disrupt homeostasis and cause disease.
    Radio likes this.
  10. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Senior Member

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    Zogor-Ndreaj, Shkodër, Albania
    Yes I've long thought the same. I, and all my family are blonde/brown hair with blue eyes and 3 of us with CFS. Even though we are not Scandinavian. I bet many others on this forum have the same features too.

    Anyway, I've always wondered why and always attributed it to an evolutionary trait but never thought of Vitamin D.

    Stranger things have occurred...
  11. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Senior Member

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    Have you ever taken high dose VITD?

    If so did you get the levels tested before and after for comparison?

    Thats very interesting...
  12. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Senior Member

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    Zogor-Ndreaj, Shkodër, Albania
    I am sure each and everyone of the factors you mentioned will make anyones health, in general, worse.
    But it is well known that even one of them can cause a condition/ disease all on its own. It may trigger a domino affect which gives course for the other factors to occur or it may be a lone factor driving a condition.
  13. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I expect they have - ditto the general population.

    Myself: dark hair, brown eyes, very un-Scandinavian. Ditto at least two friends with ME, although one is half-German. Can't think of any ME people I know who look Scandinavian, apart perhaps from one woman I met two or three times who I think was blonde.

    I have done a blogpost on my preferred theories. To me it is gut dysbiosis due to wrong diet for phenotype plus e.g. antibiotics, various other stressors (e.g. severe emotional trauma, chronic emotional stress, over-exertion, infection, vaccination), leading to autoimmunity.

    Saying what is THE cause is difficult/impossible, as IMO there is a chain of causation involving multiple factors which will vary between individuals.

    As for causing CFS in pigs - there is enough controversy, uncertainty and difficulty diagnosing it in humans, and it is done mostly from self-report, so goodness knows how they concluded that pigs had it! o_O

    EDIT - I believe that the treatable underlying cause is USUALLY gut dysbiosis, but it may sometimes be another biological barrier such as the blood-brain barrier. The initial cause(s) may not include an inappropriate diet, but that can perpetuate it. I explain this better in my blog!
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
  14. Jon_Tradicionali

    Jon_Tradicionali Senior Member

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    Hi MeSci

    It may not be the case that you must LOOK the same as Scandinavians in order to predispose you to CFS. It may be a gene or set of genes that are inherited.

    As for wrong diet, I don't think it fits with those that have had it for a long time. I've had it since a mysterious flu at 4 years old. My brother the same. My mother at age 3 she came down with a 'flu'. All maternal family members have CFS. By age 4, no diet could have caused something as severe as CFS.

    I have read your theories and many, including myself, are leaning towards bacteria/gut/microbes.

    The study on pigs must of course not be taken in direct comparison with those done on humans.
    But the main elements of the study still stand.

    That is, a change in gut bacteria CAN cause CFS-like symptoms.
  15. Min

    Min Senior Member

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    I believe that contaminated vaccines are the cause.
    liquid sky likes this.
  16. BFG

    BFG

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    Yes i took 5000 iu for 2 months before i became sick and my level rose to 52 from 30.
    Jon_Tradicionali likes this.
  17. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    How do we kill things lodged in the dendritic cells?
  18. Radio

    Radio *****

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    My current working hypothesis is to infuse brown rice and oregano oil together or some other low dose antimicrobial. My ultimate plan is to create a custom medical food that could be consumed everyday for long term therapy.
  19. daisybell

    daisybell Senior Member

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    My belief is that this is an auto-immune disease, with genetic susceptibility, and therefore can be triggered by a variety of factors. Anything that upsets the immune system for long enough and/or severely enough can tip the balance and trigger ME/CFS. I believe my susceptibility was triggered by parvovirus and then I was exposed to toxins (by a lovely person (not) who was pouring her boyfriend's meth production waste down the shared drains). Since then my immune system has never recovered.
    Jon_Tradicionali and MeSci like this.
  20. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    CFS-like symptoms don't equal CFS. Did they do a 2-day CPET test on the pigs, I wonder? I think there is already ample evidence that gut dysbiosis can cause not only CFS-type symptoms but also ME/CFS itself without testing non-human animals, which will give misleading results about half the time anyway.

    I do agree that the gut may not be involved in all cases. I will edit my post to reflect this. In some it could be a compromised blood-brain barrier, which can occur due to similar causes as those for gut wall hyperpermeability, or head trauma.
    Radio likes this.

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