Guardian: Leaked internal memo's reveal montrous ideas for appeal charges etc.

[Firestormm]

I despair (again):

The Guardian
People stripped of benefits could be charged for challenging decision

Thursday 20 February 2014

People who have been stripped of benefits could be charged by the government for trying to appeal against the decision to an independent judge.

Critics said the proposal, contained in an internal Department for Work and Pensions document leaked to the Guardian, would hit some of the poorest people in Britain, who have been left with little or no income.

In the document about the department's internal finances, officials say the "introduction of a charge for people making appeals against [DWP] decisions to social security tribunals" would raise money.

Other ideas include selling off child support debt to "the private sector to collect", though civil servants remark that the government would be unlikely to raise more than 5-7p in the pound from the £1.4bn currently owed to the DWP. The department currently collects arrears.

Earlier this week figures showed that in the past year nearly 900,000 people have had their benefits stopped, the highest figure for any 12-month period since jobseeker's allowance was introduced in 1996. In recent months, however, 58% of those who wanted to overturn DWP sanction decisions in independent tribunals have been successful. Before 2010, the success rate of appeals was 20% or less.

One welfare legal adviser said the number of appeals being lodged at independent tribunals would be decimated if the government introduced a charge.

Last year the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) which sets policy in the area, brought in charges for employment tribunalsof up to £250 to lodge a claim, depending on the kind of case being brought. The union Unison asked judges to review the policy, saying the number of claims had dropped by more than half after fees were introduced. High court judges declared the policy lawful this month.

In the DWP Efficiency Review, which is marked "restricted", it says the proposal for charging for social security tribunals is already "under investigation" by the MoJ and officials "intend to revisit it" in the wake of the Unison court challenge decision.

However, the 80-page document points out, the policy will "entail no revenue generation nor efficiency for the [DWP] per se" but will however generate income for the justice department.

The policy proposal leak comes as the prime minister and senior religious leaders clash over the benefits system. In a letter to the Daily Mirror, 27 Anglican bishops blamed David Cameron for creating a "national crisis" in which hundreds of thousands of people have been forced to survive on the charity of food banks because of "punitive sanctions" and other DWP failures. It followed similar criticisms from Vincent Nichols, the highest ranking Catholic in England and Wales, that the government was stripping away the welfare safety net – a charge dismissed as "an exaggeration" by Nick Clegg, the deputy prime minister.

The justice minister Shailesh Vara said: "The government has made clear that reducing the deficit is our top priority. It is right that the Ministry of Justice looks at all opportunities to bring down the cost of our services to the taxpayer.

"We believe that it is right to consider whether those who use tribunals should make a greater contribution to their costs, where they can afford to do so, which is why we introduced fees for employment tribunals last year.

"We will continue to keep the position under review, but we have no current plans to extend fee charging into other tribunals."

Rachel Reeves, shadow work and pensions secretary, said: "When government's own figures show a staggering 58% of appeals against Department for Work and Pensions decisions to dock jobseeker's allowance are upheld, it's clear the system is broken. Rather than penalising thousands of people by charging them to appeal, ministers need to ask why they are presiding over a broken system which is making so many bad decisions, which are overturned on appeal."

Steve Winyard, head of policy and campaigns at the Royal National Institute of Blind People, which is threatening the DWP with legal action over sanction failures, said: "Every week RNIB receives complaints about DWP failing to provide correspondence and other benefits information in Braille or other accessible formats.

"As a result, these people are at direct risk of sanction and a number have had the benefits they rely on to live withdrawn. To now say that these individuals will not even be able to appeal the inaccurate DWP decision without paying for it is a disgrace, It's a 'computer says no' approach that locks people out and leaves some with no help whatsoever, many becoming reliant on food banks as a result."

...

Read more...

 

[Valentijn]

What do they want, rioting in the streets?

 

[Firestormm]

What do they want, rioting in the streets?

Yep. The police are itching to try their water cannon's. Arseholes. I often wonder if 'leaked documents' are intentionally leaked to perhaps take the sting out of something nasty - so the leak portrays the worst case scenario, and then when the policy does come it is watered down to the extent that it seems more reasonable. What I mean to say is [gods pull yourself together Russ ], they have no intention of actually doing this but are happy to scare the crap out of people. Wouldn't put it past the twats.

 

[Esther12]

What do they want, rioting in the streets?

Disabled people suck at rioting. They can get truly screwed over, and just being angry about it leads to the 'militant' accusation.

 

[Ren]

Firestormm wrote: "I often wonder if 'leaked documents' are intentionally leaked to perhaps take the sting out of something nasty - so the leak portrays the worst case scenario, and then when the policy does come it is watered down to the extent that it seems more reasonable."

I can't recall the exact details, but somewhere - in a country outside the UK and where many people have suffered and/or died for some years now due to cuts in healthcare/safety net - a senior politician made waves by proposing a law to increase retirement age to 70 and discussing how people need to think of how to have two carreers - one for the prime of their life and then another for their senior years. The politician said this would be neccessary if people wanted proper healthcare/safety net.

And so, people began also saying just what Firestormm mentioned above that those in power propose a controversial measure so a measure of a lesser degree (their real aim) can be bargained for. There has to be a name for this scenario (from the business world?), as it's probably been going on as long as there's been humans.

I also wanted to add - and this is not a good story but one that's been etched into my mind and one which reflects the nature of benefits agencies - that there was a story about a man (and again I forget details) who had applied time and time again for support (which he legally had a right to) where he could take time from work in order to be a caretaker for his severely ill wife.

The agency repeatedly denied him, declaring his wife's illness wasn't severe enough to warrent any kind of social support, etc. And the husband kept fighting, being denied, and re-applying, etc. Until his wife died, and he said that on the day of her funeral when he came home after the funeral, there was a letter from the social agency again stating that his wife's illness was not serious enough, etc.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

The Ukrainians have the right idea.
As I've said, the only way to deal with scum, is to kick them and keep kicking until they give in, and if they do it again, you kick them even longer and harder next time.

These aren't politicians, they are SCUM.
They are destroying the UK, they make Bad King John look good.
As usual folk will flap around like chickens "Oh noes we can't say that, can't do that, they can't be that bad!" until they get their necks wrung.

you cannot appeal to their "Better nature" or "common sense", they don't HAVE any
they have become Human "Black holes" they are *demons* in a certain sense, they are insatiably destructive, carnivorous and never EVER have enough or care what they do (more Tao/psychological than usual Christian concept of a "demon", but still as bloody dangerous)

zealots cannot face the idea of compassion or doubt, be it politics, religion or greed, they go into "collapsar" mode.

Guantanamo Bay showed how a nation built on rule of law and civil rights could slide right down the hell hole like that *snaps fingers* and NO most of the folk there were fitted up, you offer $5,000+ a head on "enemy" they'll grass their enemies in just for the money and revenge!)

History is repeating, "Austerity", just like Germany 1930, another UKIP councillor came out with INVOLUNTARY euthanasia crap for disabled kids, another with racist crap
There is NO deficit it's all a LIE. they gave the bankers ludicrous sums of *PUBLIC* money instead of SLAUGHTERING the swine for high treason.
Stuff idiots in Afghanistan, JP Morgan etc should get drone Hellfire missiles into their CEO's meetings. (oh and note the sudden number of financiers etc committing suicide in dodgy ways...serious, go check)

Occupy every government building AND bank in London and Washington, throw the sods out on their asses
or
prepare for horror, either bloody awful carnage of rebellion, or tyranny with extermination camps, it's inevitable
these nutters have been digging out all the "safety catches" and supporting structures of our systems for 30 years in logarithmic progression
from here, it's ballistic territory, on an express elevator to Hell, going down!

simple proof of this is that Ian Duncan smith said the destruction of the welfare system is a "Moral crusade", Cameron said it has brought "Hope"....as ANY real person in the UK knows, that's insanity.

NO PASARAN!!!!!!!!

 

[Jon_Tradicionali]

Disabled people suck at rioting.

Bwahahaaaa

That's the funniest line I've read in recent times.

 

[SilverbladeTE]

Hey, don't dis disabled chaos!
diapers make much better weapons than molotive cocktails!
*hurls poo panties like a bola, wraps around Cop's face...much barfing ensues*

hm, you could fit motability scooters with Boudicca-style leg chopping blades (think "Ben Hur" if ya ain't familiar with Celtic chariots), a V8 turbo engine, oil spray, smoke projectors and testicle-seeking tasers hidden behind the headlights!!
Yes, I am Q!

 

[Valentijn]

hm, you could fit motability scooters with Boudicca-style leg chopping blades (think "Ben Hur" if ya ain't familiar with Celtic chariots), a V8 turbo engine, oil spray, smoke projectors and testicle-seeking tasers hidden behind the headlights!!

I don't think most of that would be much good for my mobility scooter's paint job

But I guess that's why I've got nail polish which is the same color - to cover up the little nicks, dings, and scrapes, as well as the burn marks, bullet dents and high-pressure water damage

 

[Jon_Tradicionali]

The Ukrainians have the right idea.
As I've said, the only way to deal with scum, is to kick them and keep kicking until they give in, and if they do it again, you kick them even longer and harder next time.

These aren't politicians, they are SCUM.
They are destroying the UK, they make Bad King John look good.
As usual folk will flap around like chickens "Oh noes we can't say that, can't do that, they can't be that bad!" until they get their necks wrung.

you cannot appeal to their "Better nature" or "common sense", they don't HAVE any
they have become Human "Black holes" they are *demons* in a certain sense, they are insatiably destructive, carnivorous and never EVER have enough or care what they do (more Tao/psychological than usual Christian concept of a "demon", but still as bloody dangerous)

zealots cannot face the idea of compassion or doubt, be it politics, religion or greed, they go into "collapsar" mode.

Guantanamo Bay showed how a nation built on rule of law and civil rights could slide right down the hell hole like that *snaps fingers* and NO most of the folk there were fitted up, you offer $5,000+ a head on "enemy" they'll grass their enemies in just for the money and revenge!)

History is repeating, "Austerity", just like Germany 1930, another UKIP councillor came out with INVOLUNTARY euthanasia crap for disabled kids, another with racist crap
There is NO deficit it's all a LIE. they gave the bankers ludicrous sums of *PUBLIC* money instead of SLAUGHTERING the swine for high treason.
Stuff idiots in Afghanistan, JP Morgan etc should get drone Hellfire missiles into their CEO's meetings. (oh and note the sudden number of financiers etc committing suicide in dodgy ways...serious, go check)

Occupy every government building AND bank in London and Washington, throw the sods out on their asses
or
prepare for horror, either bloody awful carnage of rebellion, or tyranny with extermination camps, it's inevitable
these nutters have been digging out all the "safety catches" and supporting structures of our systems for 30 years in logarithmic progression
from here, it's ballistic territory, on an express elevator to Hell, going down!

simple proof of this is that Ian Duncan smith said the destruction of the welfare system is a "Moral crusade", Cameron said it has brought "Hope"....as ANY real person in the UK knows, that's insanity.

NO PASARAN!!!!!!!!

And who'll be the one that takes one for the team?

Me?

You?

No one....?

 

[Snowdrop]

Firestormm, I understand your despair.

The chickens are coming home to roost in terms of western governments handouts to their cronies. Now through incompetence and mismanagement the system is broken.

Now they want to criminalise the poor and disabled because they have little power to harm the people who caused the mess (to be fair it was a government/big business collaboration).

Soon in a neighbourhood near you:

 

[alex3619]

What do they want, rioting in the streets?

The know the disabled are mostly too sick and frail to do this. Its the family of the sick and disabled who might riot though. Its deliberately targeting the vulnerable. Its very despicable. If its to save money, why are not the politicians taking a pay-cut and then freezing wages? Why not target tax evasion, especially at the large corporate end? Why not slash the military budget? The "why nots" tell part of the story.

Oh, PS, the financiers who oversaw the crisis need to be target more, or more consideration to laws that penalize them severely for when a crisis happens again ... which it will.

Something to consider - any business can be nationalized.

The surest way to see the rise of an extreme government is in response to an almost-as-extreme government. The backlash can put people in power who are even worse, just because they claim to have answers. That in part is how the current UK government got in - a claim to answers, where nearly all they had was ideological policy. What will the next UK government be like?

 

[MeSci]

What will the next UK government be like?

I dread to think.

 

[Firestormm]

Well there is absolutely no way I am voting Tory... but there isn't a lot of choice between them all really. For the first time in my life I might vote Labour. Holy crap. That is scary. But I can't abstain - not in my nature. I always think a vote should be for the MP in the area - more than for the national party - but our area is dominated really by Liberals... Humph! I am an undecided still I think.

 

[peggy-sue]

I'm voting YES on September the 18th.
Then, when Scotland is independant, you can all move up here.

We have a population of pandas that is double the population of tory MPs here. .

 

[Ren]

Can I ask please what the difference is (just generally) between Labour and Liberals in UK politics.

 

[peggy-sue]

We don't have Labour any more. That was murdered by Tory Bliar. "New" Labour is just Tory-lite, another well-right of centre party.
Nobody knows what Liberals are.
At the moment, they're in bed with the tories, but have just announced they'd happily form a coalition with new labour. Anything to get jobs at the top level for the indivuiduals involved.

 

[Valentijn]

Can I ask please what the difference is (just generally) between Labour and Liberals in UK politics.

From a US standpoint, it sounds like Tory is pretty similar to Republicans as they currently are - basically let the rich get richer and let the poor die off for the good of the country or some such. Labour sounds a bit more central, maybe it used to be like a US "independent" voter, but now swinging more toward where the Republican party used to be before it went completely nuts (Reagan republican). Liberals sound like Democrats, but probably more socialized than any US Democrat politician would admit to.

 

[Ren]

Thanks, peggy-sue. / Edit: And Valentijn - we must have posted at the same time. (But I wouldn't describe US parties in those same terms. Imo, there's a lot of cultural hatred of peoples in certain regions in the US and this is perpetuated by the media, etc., which leads to inaccurate descriptions of people's motives, etc.)

 

[user9876]

From a US standpoint, it sounds like Tory is pretty similar to Republicans as they currently are - basically let the rich get richer and let the poor die off for the good of the country or some such. Labour sounds a bit more central, maybe it used to be like a US "independent" voter, but now swinging more toward where the Republican party used to be before it went completely nuts (Reagan republican). Liberals sound like Democrats, but probably more socialized than any US Democrat politician would admit to.

Actually Labour are more like the democrats where as the liberal democrats are quite split but are basically supporting the Tory's in all these policies as they are part of the same coalition.