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GREEN DRINK induced Paradoxical Folate Deficiency and Altitude induced Hypokalemia

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Aug 21, 2011.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HYPOKALEMIA

    I'm making a quick stop online while on vacation in the mountains. As usual I am learning a few things. I have found a couple of additional triggers for things. I am at a higher altitude than at home by about 2500 feet. This is enough to trigger an adaptive process of making more red cells. Others, here from sea level or other flatlands have as much as a 7500 foot higher elevation than their bodies are used to. Night time muscle spasms, nausea, headaches and other ill effects are commonly reported. Guess what works to stop a lot of these things for many people, potassium. So here we have people who start making more red blood cells as an altitude adaptation who start sufferring from low potassium, again within just a few days of arrival. A potassium supplement rapidly puts an end to it. In the community kitchen for campers Norton Salt substitue (potassium chloride, 600mg/1/4 teaspoon) is readily available. While I noticed that I had to increase my potassium supplement from 1200mg/day to 1800mg/day to hold steady I hadn't asked others about spasms and such supplements. This is not to be confused with altitude sickness which can appear the first few days due to lower oxygen content and generally passes in a couple of days. The low potassium takes several days to appear by which time mild altitude sickness is generally gone if it was present at all. I don't experience altitude sickness at all at only 7500 feet. I have no idea how widespread this is but it has come up with several people, all of whom appear to be have borderline potassium levels at home so this may only apply to those close to hypokalemia in the first place.

    PARADOXICAL FOLATE DEFICIENCY

    There is a class of supplements that appears to be becoming more popular, "green" drinks with a great deal of vegetable extracts including vegetable source folate. Green drink "detox" is happening all over the place. Many people suffer the familiar "detox" symptoms which are readily identifiable as paradoxical folate deficincy and readily reversable with Metafolin after quitting the green drink. They think they are "detoxing" their bodies with these things when actually they are inducing Paradoxical Folate Deficiency with high levels of vegetable source folate. This widespread experience of Paradoxical Folate Deficiency by such a large percentage of those taking these drinks leads me to believe that the experience of vegetable folate blocking methylfolate is far more widespread than I had ever thought. Calling a severe induced folate deficiency "detox" and accepting it is dangerous and foolish. I still don't know if there is any real "detox" beyond glutathione/NAC induced folate deficiency, paradoxical folate deficiency and hypokalemia. But these appear to be at least the 90% answers. It could save your life and health to always question "detox" symptoms. So far they are almost always induced folate and/or potassium and/or mb12-adb12 deficiencies and that is very easily demonstrable. The belief in "detox" is a perniciously dangerous belief as real detox, if it exists at all, appears to be far more rare than induced folate/potassium/mb12/adb12 deficiencies. Good luck. I'll be back in a couple of weeks.






  2. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    I was just reading up on how to boost glutathione without taking it as a supplement or precursor. I came across this:-

  3. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Freddd.

    I find this puzzling. The main folates found in vegetables are 5L-methyl tetrahydrofolate and folinic acid, both of which are readily used in the bodies of most people. Folic acid does not occur naturally.

    As I've suggested, I suspect that you have what appears to be a rare deficiency in the enzyme MTHFS (methenyltrahydrofolate synthetase) which is the enzyme that normally converts folinic acid to methenyltetrahydrofolate, from which it can normally be converted to other forms of folate, including 5L-methyltetrahydrofolate. I think that explains why your body is not able to use folinic acid, and in fact why it blocks your folate metabolism, as folinic acid is known to inhibit the SHMT reaction, which is the main reaction that converts THF to 5,10-methylene tetrahydrofolate, which in turn can be converted to 5L-methyltetrahydrofolate.

    Best regards,

    Rich
    Lotus97 likes this.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    Just a quick stopby. I'll be back after labor day. If you do a little data mining on the internet it can be noticed that there are some people, a substantial number in all but probably only a small percentage who have the induced folate deficiency symptoms that they are calling "detox". The very easy test to see if it is indeed paradoxical folate deficiency is to stop the green drink, folinic acid, folic acid and take Deplin size doses of Metafolin to see if the symptoms rapidly correct. I'm not argueing that vegetable food source paradoxical folate deficiency is common as it most clearly isn't. However, if even 1% of 7,000,000,000 people are so afflicted, that is 70,000,000 people who may be afflicted. This would explain an awful lot of the chronic puzzling unsolvable chronic disease problems we see. This could make the difference for those perhaps 70,000,000 people who are now untreatable "writeoffs".

    The pattern is sure building up. First I experience it and identify it from glutathione/NAC as do a significant number posting about glutathione "detox" and NAC "detox". Then I experience and identify it from folic acid and then folinic acid. Once again plenty of people taking folic and/or folinic acid identyfy "detox" that can be reversed with Deplin size doses of Metafolin. Then I experience it with premium B-complex made from food extracts, the folate extracted from broccoli, and again so do various others experience "detox" with these. Then I experienced it, having elliminated all other soucres for folate from my program, from my fresh organic veggies from my garden, quantity dependent. Then I identified it in a person taking a "green drink" supplement and saw it reversed with Metafolin. Then a search of the internet indicates that the "predictable detox reaction" from green drinks is fairly widespread, is attributable to "detoxing" and identical with paradaoxical folate deficiency.

    Then there is the difference in side effects between Deplin at 7.5 and 15mg with is "well tolerated with no side effects different from sugar pills" and Cerefolin/NAC with all sorts of nasty side effects which just happen to match 100% "NAC detox" reaction which just happen to match 100% severe induced folate deficiency.

    Then there is the dose of Deplin to consider. 800mcg of Metafolin can be very effective if a person has no paradoxical folate deficiency. The people being dosed with Deplin, and I am meeting some out in the field, all have resistant depression as would be expected from paradoxical folate deficiency. It is being used with some effectiveness with people with MS (low CSF cobalamin, high CSF HCY). They are taking amounts, ie 7.5mg-15mg 1-2 per day, that are necessary to overcome food or supplement based paradoxical folate deficiency. In fact the amount I found effective by titration is at the LOW end of what the double blind clinical research found was needed to overcome their resistance (of unknown causes) to folate effectivness for depression. Insurance companies are refusing to pay for Deplin becasue it is "just a vitamin" so some of the folks with MS are turning to Solgar Metafolin at half the price of the Deplin per mg.

    That's also ignoring that the incidence of "detox" reactions here with people taking the hycbl and folinic acid is perhaps 20-50x as great as those taking mb12-metafolin with a little folic acid. That was a naked eyeball shocker the moment I signed in here and started reading. I mentioned it right up front that something was very different and it wasn't the symptoms sets of the participant. It was the protocol being used. I called this reaction an artifact of the protocol even though at that point I didn't know just why and tended to overattribute to hycbl because I didn't suspect folic/folinic acid at that time. Learning about the severe induced folate deficiency from glutathione/NAC caused extensive neurological damage almost putting me in a wheel chair and I am still not fully recovered. In the literature, if you look, you will find a number of people with "unexpectedly profound neurological response" to Metafolin. There is another set of people likely having paradoxical folate deficiency.

    All it takes is a demonstration case or two to the contrary to invalidate a hypothesis. We have a whole lot of demonstration cases invalidating the very limited genetic hypothesis. That has gotten impossibly untenable Continuing to maintain that it can't be happening because it should be very rare is rather ridiculous in the face of the information and is terrible science. Instead the task at this point is to learn to clearly identify the susceptable groups.

    It's comforting in a statistically based analysis system to throw out those outside the 2 standard deviations response range but writing off those folks, condeming them to ill health and death rather than understanding what is going on with them and allowing them a life of good health bothers me ethically. It also creates an underclass of untreatables that are uninsurable, untreatable even if insured, with all sorts of drugs thrown at them like mud against the wall hoping that some of it will stick. The drug side effects are often so terrible that they learn to suffer in silence rather than take even more unaffordable drugs whose benefit is dubious and side effects terrible. These people are called names by the doctors and treated badly with the hope that they will just go away or something. If they are considered at all it is as a new profit center for yet undeveloped drugs overpower the symptoms enough that they shut up and stop bothering the medical system. The docs despise them becasue there is something different about them because they "don't get better" no matter how much of the persons money they suck up. That was the key question asked of me by a doc kicking me out of his practice thousands of dollars later "What makes you different from my other patients as you don't get better?" Makes me want to say that medicine should be done on the same basis as so many other things, "Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back".

    I'm sorry if this seems a bit of a rant. I'm po-ed at the insurance and medical industry of which I have been a part for most of my life. It seems that they want to kick those who are down and make them be quiet writeoffs by drugging them into submission even if the drugs don't work for their problems, "mothers little helpers".
  5. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    This is true in natural grown vegetables by heritage seeds. And you are correct in that folic acid does not occur naturally. But unfortunately, our foods, many of our foods are not natural, nor from heritage seeds. They are genetically modified, and many of the fruits and vegetables promoted for natural folate content
    are now actually modified in which folic acid is now present. They are modified in such a way as to express folic acid not 5L- methyl tetrahydrofolate.

    I have seen the same effects in me when I add particular green foods or fruits in which have been manipulated in such a way and I dont have to go up in altitude to see it or feel its effects. Interestingly enough, my track to illness didn't start until after I added all the supposed grains, vegetables, and fruits manipulated in this way in order to improve my diet and nutrients and promoted by mainstream.

    Laurie
  6. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Laurie.

    I'm very interested in this. Can you point me toward references to published work that shows that genetically modified foods contain folic acid?

    Best regards.

    Rich
  7. determined

    determined Senior Member

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    Yes, Laurie, I'd like to hear more about this too! Thanks.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Laurie,

    I too would be very interrested in this. I have to say that this paradoxical folate deficiency reaction, to all these veggies I ate to improve my health etc, and because I like them, came as a real shock. I go to a lot of effort to have my fresh from my organic garden veggies for a few months per year. I've never paid any attention to the varieties except to find the ones that grow and taste best. This year I have 4 varieties of tomatoes one of which is an heirloom. The swiss chard is an old and very popular strain, not a hybred.

    My approach of peeling back layer by layer of effects has been very effective at demonstrating that for some people paradoxical folate deficiency can result ffom veggies but damned if I know why. I even have a pretty good approximation of how much I can eat of the veggies how often. I can eat a good serving of chard but if I drink the broth that comes from steaming it, very tasty, that can put me over the edge into deficiency for a couple of days. As has been pointed out through the years folate is concentrated in the cook water or better yet steam broth.

    As I have found that a small amount of folinic acid is worse than an equal amount of folic acid, and figured it was possibly something as simple as the longer serum half life, I don't need an explanation of folic acid being bred into foods. However, due to the common belief that "folic acid" = "folate" I can imagine plant breeders doing selective breeding for higher folic acid if they can find it at all. It shouldn't be any more difficult than than any other selective breeding for flavor, sugar, or other characteristics.

    After I get back I intend to do some data mining to see if I can find the approximate incidence of "green drink" induced paradoxical deficiency. The markers are well recognized, widely discussed and appear to be totally misinterpreted. I am absolutely certain that the incidence is so high that it can't possibly be some obscure very rare genetic variation or set of variations. Seeing the high incidence of usage of Deplin in MS, a pragmatic usage for depression, AND the low CSF cobalamin AND the elevated CSF Hcy, AND the intermittant pattern of paradoxical folate deficiency matching the intermittant pattern of MS, AND the amazing responses I've seen with people with MS to 5 star mb12 and Metafolin I would not be suprised at all if there is some kind of methylfolate connection to MS.

    This intermittant nature of the paradoxical folate deficiency appears to be both a flag for it's presence and possibly is describing something fundamental in what is happening.
  9. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Freddd.

    I would suggest that you consider the possibility that the problems you experience from the vegetables are due to folinic acid rather than folic acid, and that the reason you have these priobleme is that you have an enzyme deficiency in MTFHS (methenyl tetrahydrofolate synthetase) which is the only enzyme that can utilize folinic acid. Without enough activity of this enzyme, folinic acid would be expected to build up, and it is known to inhibit the SHMT reaction. I think this would explain your experience.

    I think it is unlikely that folic acid would be produced in plants. The cells in plants, as in animals, operate at a reducing redox potential. Under these conditions the oxidized form of folate, i.e. folic acid, would not be stable. On the other hand, both folinic acid and 5L-methyl THF are known to be produced by plants. Perhaps you could find some vegetables that produce mostly 5L-methyl THF and not much folinic acid, and perhaps they would work better for you.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  10. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    Could you contact anyone to ask about this? My boyfriend teaches guitar to a university professor who specializes in plant viruses. I'm not sure if he would know about folinic acid being bred into vegetables though.
  11. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Aprilk1869.

    I did a PubMed search, and couldn't find any evidence of folic acid (not folinic acid, which is a natural form) being bred into food crops. Below is an abstract on genetic modification of tomatoes to increase the folate content. The full paper, which can be obtained free at PubMed by typing the number into the search box and clicking on the colored box at the upper right, reports that folic acid was not found, and that the main form of augmented folate content was 5L-methyl tetrahydrofolate, and that some folinic acid (5-formyl tetrahydrofolate) was also found in the modified tomatoes. The lack of folic acid is consistent with the biochemistry of plants.

    Best regards,

    Rich



    Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2007 Mar 6;104(10):4218-22. Epub 2007 Mar 5.
    Folate biofortification of tomato fruit.
    Daz de la Garza RI, Gregory JF 3rd, Hanson AD.
    Source

    Department of Horticultural Sciences, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611, USA.
    Abstract

    Folate deficiency leads to neural tube defects and other human diseases, and is a global health problem. Because plants are major folate sources for humans, we have sought to enhance plant folate levels (biofortification). Folates are synthesized from pteridine, p-aminobenzoate (PABA), and glutamate precursors. Previously, we increased pteridine production in tomato fruit up to 140-fold by overexpressing GTP cyclohydrolase I, the first enzyme of pteridine synthesis. This strategy increased folate levels 2-fold, but engineered fruit were PABA-depleted. We report here the engineering of fruit-specific overexpression of aminodeoxychorismate synthase, which catalyzes the first step of PABA synthesis. The resulting fruit contained an average of 19-fold more PABA than controls. When transgenic PABA- and pteridine-overproduction traits were combined by crossing, vine-ripened fruit accumulated up to 25-fold more folate than controls. Folate accumulation was almost as high (up to 15-fold) in fruit harvested green and ripened by ethylene-gassing, as occurs in commerce. The accumulated folates showed normal proportions of one-carbon forms, with 5-methyltetrahydrofolate the most abundant, but were less extensively polyglutamylated than controls. Folate concentrations in developing fruit did not change in controls, but increased continuously throughout ripening in transgenic fruit. Pteridine and PABA levels in transgenic fruit were >20-fold higher than in controls, but the pathway intermediates dihydropteroate and dihydrofolate did not accumulate, pointing to a flux constraint at the dihydropteroate synthesis step. The folate levels we achieved provide the complete adult daily requirement in less than one standard serving.
    Comment in

    * Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2007 Mar 6;104(10):3675-6.

    PMID:
    17360503
    [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    PMCID: PMC1810332
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rich,

    Thanks for the article. I did not think that plants produced folic acid but if they found one that did I'm sure they would want to increase the amount and go about it in any number of ways. It was purely a speculative statement.

    However, there are way too many people having this problem, if you pick your population, for it to be a rare thing. For instance maybe it happens at a certain threshold blood level so that it is possible to go back and forth across the line as that is what is often experienced, or only when an "excessive" amount of vegatable food source folate is obtained such as from some juicing practices, "green drinks" and other such high folinic acid contents are consumed.
  13. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    http://www.gmo-compass.org/eng/database/plants/52.maize.html

    This is just one food crop, corn. The most abundent in our food supply besides soy (canola). The modifications to these crops besides expressing pesticide resistence, they have manipulated the expresssion of other amino acids, such as tryptophan and lysine specifically, and if you look hard enough, you will find many others. In fact the lysine crops were so detrimental, they took it out of mainstream feed crops ASAP. And also, some of those feed-only crops made it out to general human population sold as food, accidently. That was a big hub-bub when it happened.

    I am not picking sides, as both of you have good points and both must be considered, but what I am saying, is there is something definately wrong with the food. Consider just how many products contain corn or soy alone. Pair that with all these modified veggies and fruits, and we have a serious nutrient content issue.

    I see you found sources citing tomatos, you need to look further, the information is out there. Most tomatos on the market are not heritage. In fact, there was a time when a certain type was taken off the market, because the modifications they had performed made the tomatos taste like fish.

    I see you haven't found anything on apples yet. This is all something I have done before, and then it was just a personal interest due to my own reactions in my own health after adding these. So I didn't "officially" data mine and keep all those sources. Now I wish I would have, but my time is limited enough now that although I would love to go back and refind them, I just can't. But they are there.

    The world of GMO is a big one, and there is a reason 800 scientists around the world put out a letter of warning to its incorporation into the food supply.
  14. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, LaurieL.

    I typed "folic acid" into both the search boxes on the site you mentioned, and was not able to find any entries on it. Can you point me more specifically to a reference that indicates that any GMO food plants make folic acid?

    Thanks.

    Rich
  15. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    We need to remember that many people use the terms folic acid and folate interchangeably.

    I find that the search isn't working properly click here for a google search for that site.
  16. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    I can assure you I am not one of them, although the sources I have read may or may not. Which is why it most definately needs to be looked into more.

    I really think you are looking in the wrong places for this information. Those in which participate in GMO food production are very large corporations worth billions of dollars. Those corporations hold patents in which state that scientifically, their "recipes" cannot be breached, which in turn stops many scientists from determining the composition and expression of said manipulations. These same corporations have many in high political offices as well. So it would make great sense that little specific information would be found on the medical databases. Look at the patents.

    Laurie
  17. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Laurie.

    I don't want to be argumentative, and I understand that there are some downsides and some unknowns involved in genetic plant breeding of food crops. I'm just trying to clarify the specific issue of whether any GMO plants actually produce folic acid. As far as I know, this would be inconsistent with the reductive redox state in plant cells, without which they could not live, and I don't see how genetic modification could get around this. The reason I would like to clarify this is to try to understand why Freddd's body reacts as he reports it does when he eats vegetables. I think it must be due to his response to folinic acid, which is found in vegetables, rather than folic acid, which as far as I know does not occur in vegetables, whether genetically modified or not. You stated that GMOs produce folic acid. Were you just speculating about this, based on other known changes in GMOs? Unless you can produce some documented evidence of this, I will have to continue to hold the position that they do not.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  18. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Argumentative? Nah. This is discussion, I know the difference. When I looked into this long ago, it was a trail fraught with many avenues. It took me a few years to even put anything together, it was just that intensive.

    When you look into GMO food crops, what one must keep in mind is the transgenic status, and when one looks into the differing components comprising transgenic plants, and the effects of those manipulations on enzyme expression and amino acid expression, as well as protein aggregation and expression,nucleic acids, RNA, the list goes on and on, is where I came to folic acid. It was a huge endeavor on my part, please bear with me, I am trying to remember the steps I personally took. Yes, I have worked on this so long, I suppose it could be opinion, as you won't find it on any medical databases, but the information provided by the patents at least warrants some serious consideration. Especially in light that nutrient protocols, which your and Freddd's protocols are based off of, are so successful, and at the very least, so many are reactive to.

    Let me do some back trailing and I will get back with you.

    Laurie
  19. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    O.K. Laurie. Thanks.

    Rich
  20. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Just a minor clarification - canola oil is made from rapeseed, not soy. The name got changed for fairly obvious marketing reasons, and stands for CANadian Oil Low Acid. It does sound like it's somewhat in vogue to genetically modify it.

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