Grains and sugars precipitate neuroinflammation?

[mgk]

From what I have read there is an AGE threshold at which the insulin sensitivity declines. This age threshold is lowering from one generation to the next due to epigenetic transmission of IR from parents to children.

I don't know enough to respond to a lot of what you said but to this point I meant to say liver insulin resistance, not insulin resistance in general. There seem to be a lot of factors that go into the insulin resistance of other tissues. Roy Taylor's theory is that liver fat starts increasing because other tissues are already insulin resistant and not taking up glucose, so the burden falls on the liver to get rid of it.

I pulled out two slides from one of his presentations that shows this well. The first one shows that liver insulin sensitivity improved after losing liver fat. The second shows that muscular insulin sensitivity wasn't affected.

I think what we really need to figure out is how to fix the muscular insulin resistance...

 

[Gondwanaland]

I think what we really need to figure out is how to fix the muscular insulin resistance...

Now I got it. Agree! Reversing NAFLD occurred very rapidly for me. 2 months after going gluten free I had no more fat in my liver. That was in 2013, and losing the liver fat wasn't the solution to my probs

 

[mgk]

I just came across this cool study which shows that simply eating vinegar with meals improves muscular insulin sensitivity significantly:

Vinegar Consumption Increases Insulin-Stimulated Glucose Uptake by the Forearm Muscle in Humans with Type 2 Diabetes

Background and Aims. Vinegar has been shown to have a glucose-lowering effect in patients with glucose abnormalities. However, the mechanisms of this effect are still obscure. The aim of this randomised, crossover study was to investigate the effect of vinegar on glucose metabolism in muscle which is the most important tissue for insulin-stimulated glucose disposal.

Materials and Methods. Eleven subjects with DM2 consumed vinegar or placebo (at random order on two separate days, a week apart), before a mixed meal. Plasma glucose, insulin, triglycerides, nonesterified fatty acids (NEFA), and glycerol were measured preprandially and at 30–60 min for 300 min postprandially from the radial artery and from a forearm vein. Muscle blood flow was measured with strain-gauge plethysmography. Glucose uptake was calculated as the arteriovenous difference of glucose multiplied by blood flow.

Results. Vinegar compared to placebo (1) increased forearm glucose uptake (p=0.0357), (2) decreased plasma glucose (p=0.0279), insulin (p=0.0457), and triglycerides (p=0.0439), and (3) did not change NEFA and glycerol.

Conclusions. In DM2 vinegar reduces postprandial hyperglycaemia, hyperinsulinaemia, and hypertriglyceridaemia without affecting lipolysis. Vinegar’s effect on carbohydrate metabolism may be partly accounted for by an increase in glucose uptake, demonstrating an improvement in insulin action in skeletal muscle. This trial is registered with Clinicaltrials.gov NCT02309424.

Here are graphs of postprandial insulin and muscle glucose uptake (v+ and v- are meal with and without vinegar):

They consumed 30mL vinegar (6% acetic acid) 5 minutes before the meal. 30mL is about 2 tablespoons. There doesn't seem to be a definitive dose yet though; there are other studies which show that a few teaspoons has similar effects. There are also other studies which show that vinegar has similar beneficial effects on metabolically healthy people.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I just came across this cool study which shows that simply eating vinegar with meals improves muscular insulin sensitivity significantly:

Here is a set of tips to diabetics about acidic foods
http://www.mendosa.com/acidic_foods.htm
A main issue I see is that being low in B6 one can't tolerate fermented foods well. Though supplementing with B6 is one of the most challengings thing I have faced so far.

 

[mgk]

Here is a set of tips to diabetics about acidic foods
http://www.mendosa.com/acidic_foods.htm

I was aware that vinegar lowered the glycemic index/load by slowing absorption but I had no idea it increased muscular insulin sensitivity too! Really fascinating stuff...

A main issue I see is that being low in B6 one can't tolerate fermented foods well. Though supplementing with B6 is one of the most challengings thing I have faced so far.

Is it the acetic acid or other fermentation byproducts in vinegar that cause the problem? Since acetic acid is the active ingredient, theoretically you should be able to dilute the pure acid in water and use it that way. Probably would taste pretty bad though.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Is it the acetic acid or other fermentation byproducts in vinegar that cause the problem? Since acetic acid is the active ingredient, theoretically you should be able to dilute the pure acid in water and use it that way. Probably would taste pretty bad though.

Fermentation increases histamine.

I have good insulin sensitivity, but I must watch my carbs otherwise I get hyperinsulinemia very easily. If I go too low on carbs I get hypoglycemia. Same for my husband.

 

[ebethc]

Potatoes may be less likely to 'feed the beasties' when they're recently cooked, before resistant starch is formed.

@Crux - what is the benefit/drawbacks of resistant starch?

 

[Crux]

@ebethc ;

Resistant starch feeds gut microbes. This can be beneficial if the microbiota is in relatively good proportion. ( not completely understood yet.)

If there are too many pathogenic microbes in the gut, resistant starches can increase their growth as well.

 

[picante]

I haven't read this whole thread, but was glad to see this, Jaime,

When I do so, all the pain / congestion at the base of my skull evaporates.

since most of my pain/spasms/lymphatic congestion occurs 1"-2" off center at the base of my skull. I pretty sure that it's immune activation from CNS infections, since my illness started with meningitis (EBV). Did you also have a viral onset?

Anyone else notice upticks in inflammation with ANY grains?

I've been avoiding cornmeal & corn-derived foods for years because they cause gut inflammation. It's neuro-visceral.

I accidentally got a dose of wheat a few months ago, but didn't know it until I woke up with inflammation in my S-I joint (very common), and all around my ribs & scapula and down into my shoulder (very unusual), all on the right side (everything is on the R side with me).

Recently I switched from one GF bread to another, and your post has convinced me to switch back so I can see whether the rice bread is responsible for the increase in my S-I joint inflammation/sciatica.

 

[Tammy]

The moment I consume a grain -- ANY grain -- it flares right back. I ate potatoes last night (small quantitity) and it felt all right, so it's not carbs necessarily. I figured I was all right and had a handful of organic corn chips and the pain came right on back.

Happens to me also. Grains feed pathogens..................pathogens cause inflammation. Corn feeds pathogens. Potatoes don't.........thank god. Potatoes are actually good because they contain a lot of lysine which is good against viruses.

 

[picante]

A main issue I see is that being low in B6 one can't tolerate fermented foods well.

Any idea why? I'm still not tolerating vinegar or fermented foods. A bit of mustard is my daily total.

 

[Sundancer]

yes, were all different, interesting thread.

this body cannot handle gluten/cowsdairy/soy, I get brainfog and severe belly-ache.
Goatsmilk is OK in small quantity. A2milk is question, I tried it, from a very trusted source, got rolling bellyache so did not wait to see whether I get brainfog from it. I think not, but the experiment was short-lived ( gave the rest to the neighbor)

Peanuts, cashew, cheese, fermented foods ( and I think vinegar) give (enormous when cheese) stress reaction, high pain, no sleep. I think this is histamine related.

I can eat buckwheat, white rice and millet. Corn I tried but felt like sort of low-profile wheat, so quit that.
Rolled oats give me both brainfog ( prob due to gluten from factory-contamination) and burping acid. The organic form also leads to acid burping. No oats for me.

I try to keep the grains low, not less then 50 grams dryweight, under that I crash totally. i strive to not eat more then 100 gr a day.

Potatoes don't work, in whatever form I get bloated, so I seem to feed the baddies and quit. Shame really, I like potatoes. Pumpkins are much eaten here.
I often are too tired to prepare food....pumpkins easy and filling. Lentils also staple food

On the bright side, I have been experimenting with chocolate lately, and find I can handle it again. Not too much, not too late. But yes, yummie, eat a little chocolate in the midday. After some bought bars ( lovely neighbors I have) I now make it myself, very yummie , next step is trying to make chocolatecookies, they have been my favorite for decades....

 

[picante]

But FoodStats does say I react significantly to wheat. So I'm allergic to something in grains that isn't gluten or gliadin...

I haven't done FoodStats testing, but my gluten/gliadin tests turned out negative, like yours. The wheat I ingested a few months ago was in a restaurant, so clearly NOT organic. The inflammation response I described above.

FWIW, conventional wheat is sprayed with glyphosate right before harvest to make harvesting easier. Glyphosate is highly inflammatory, and it's everywhere, thanks to herbicide drift.

Rolled oats give me both brainfog ( prob due to gluten from factory-contamination) and burping acid.

Is anyone having fogbrain/grogginess from GF oats? I am, although not usually severe.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Any idea why? I'm still not tolerating vinegar or fermented foods. A bit of mustard is my daily total.

Histamine, I suppose, which is degraded by DAO (B6 + copper are the co-factors)

Rolled oats give me both brainfog ( prob due to gluten from factory-contamination) and burping acid

Recent research showed that non-celiacs react to the starch rather than to the gluten. There is a thread about it.

 

[me/cfs 27931]

I get increased neurological issues from wheat. Not all sources of wheat affect me equally, which has me questioning what it is about the wheat that does this. It might even not be wheat but herbicides like glyphosate. Or not.

Exactly the same. Definitely wheat can sometimes trigger neuro symptoms, but usually not and so very unpredictable. I'm baffled.

So I try not to worry about it too much.

 

[Crash Davis]

I shut down gluten in 2007 on the off chance I might have Celiac due to some overlapping symptoms. My ttg and gliadin antibodies were negative however, and over time I stopped believing I might have Celiac but continued diet to date. My health improved quite a bit as back then going off gluten meant pretty much cutting off a lot of carbs and grains. I felt better. I lost 45lbs, probably 30 would have been sufficient.

Over the years gluten free has become a "thing" in mainstream and there are entire ailes in the better quality grocery stores that have all the old favorites we crave but in gluten free versions, always containing some other carbohydrate......for several years I imbibed in these and had a noticeable return on symptoms (but not as bad as pre-gluten free) that I didn't clue together right away, not to mention return of weight gain.

--Bottom line, my body does not like carbs all that much. They all seem to be neurogastro inflammatory to me. It does seem to be dosage dependant (i.e. more carbs = equal more effects, less carbs = less effects)
--My body does not like grains mostly of any type...except oatmeal seems to not be much of a problem.

--My body does not like moderate to large amounts of simple sugars at once....these can cause a near immediate PEM type feeling if I were to overdo it. If I were to eat a decent sized bowl of ice cream before bed (or really anytime, but before bed is worse), I'm guaranteed to wake up with a near similar, yet quite a bit milder feeling to what my alcohol intolerance feeling is.

I'm not diabetic nor approaching diabetes.
My fasting glucose is usually 80 +/- 5 mg/dL.
My HGBA1C is usually around 4.0-4.5%

However, there are maybe some similarities in my symptoms to diabetes at times such as an unquenchable thirst (mine in absence of actual dehydration), skin problems, neuropathies, numbness in distal extremities and others so much that when I first got ill MDs were constantly asking me if I was diabetic

I've implicated a potential dysfunctional portion of my hypothalamus in some of my symptoms more that once, thirst and low body temperature just being 2 of them.

I've recently returned to my roots, still gluten free, but going low carb and then for the past week I've gone full Ketogenic and have been super impressed with this new "fuel" for my body.

Also, it is a ton of fun peeing on the test strips and seeing the ketones positive as confirmation body is still in ketosis (not to be confused with ketoacidosis, which is a bad thing that happens almost always with diabetics with severe hyperglycemia...see it in the ER patients all the time...critical high glucose, critical low CO2, positive serum ketones......aka metabolic acidosis).

I'm probably about to do a post about Ketogenic diet and its early effects on me, particularly with sleep quality. I will search the board for something similar first so as not to duplicate.

 

[bjl218]

He is wise enough to recommend people to avoid ketosis due to high cortisol consequence.

Ketosis causes high cortisol? That might explain my experience with (accidentally) going into ketosis which resulted in panic attacks that occurred in the morning. There are other explanations of course, but I know for a fact that I was in ketosis at that time. Why is the ketogenic diet touted as being a cure-all by some?

 

[pamojja]

Why is the ketogenic diet touted as being a cure-all by some?

I guess it's rather a misunderstanding. Some report good personal results with low-carb or keto in a number of conditions. Others misinterpret this to mean it's a 'cure-all'.

Or do you know one particular scientist who would recommend anything as a cure-all regardless of preconditions or bio-individuality?

 

[bjl218]

I guess it's rather a misunderstanding. Some report good personal results with low-carb or keto in a number of conditions. Others misinterpret this to mean it's a 'cure-all'.

Or do you know one particular scientist who would recommend anything as a cure-all regardless of preconditions or bio-individuality?

OK, I guess I exaggerated on the "cure-all" comment, but I have seen lots of information about ketogenic diets addressing many conditions. The general statement is that ketogenic diets reduce inflammation and reducing inflammation is always good.

And I haven't really seen anything on when one should not attempt a ketogenic diet.

 

[ljimbo423]

I've implicated a potential dysfunctional portion of my hypothalamus in some of my symptoms more that once, thirst and low body temperature just being 2 of them.

I have also made that connection of many symptoms and the hypothalamus. I think low grade brain inflammation is probably a big part of CFS symptoms.

Jim