Grains and sugars precipitate neuroinflammation?

[JaimeS]

I found out l have SIBO and leaky gut and am doing the autoimmune paleo which is no grains for the reason given above, no nuts or seeds, no chocolate, sob! no nightshade no fruit apart from berries and no dairy. This should only be for a period of a few months but l was reading that Lyme causes leaky gut so maybe it will take longer. Lots of symptoms have eased.

Yeah, autoimmune paleo is closest to what I'm doing rn. Except less sugar.

In more 'my gut' news, I tried potato chips.

Mistake, but not a dreadful one. My gut feels bloaty, but neuro symptoms aren't markedly worse. I guess that's the difference between cold potato and hot potato, carb-wise... prebiotics vs no prebiotics...

...or it's an issue of cooking oil quality control...

@SickOfSickness -- doesn't seem to matter re: organic almonds vs not. I had almonds show up on an allergen test but kind of didn't believe it was that big a deal? I used to eat 'two moms in the raw' cacao almond truffle-like things. 100% organic, 100% raw, 100% non-GMO, etc. I sadly concluded that it was the chocolate setting me off, but eventually realized it was the almonds.

re: soy, everyone says how horrible it is, what an allergen it is... I'm steering clear of lots of tofu for now, but I really don't seem to react to soy.

I think the other grains are bad because of cross-contamination

I've heard that too, but I haven't seen a lot of evidence. Does anyone have a link to studies, or even well-organized arguments for this? It sounds plausible in theory.

Fermented stuff, still too much lactic acid ?

Definitely possible -- though I'm going on the actual pathogens being the problem, i.e. my body is hardwired at this point to view any bacterial agent as an Enemy Combatant. When I was sicker, I couldn't tolerate even probiotics that were reputed to produce no lactic acid at all.

It may be that the anti-inflammatory nature of the other things I eat at the same time as miso have some kind of effect; or it may be that the Japanese restaurant where I eat miso soup has boiled the heck out of it and there are no live cultures anymore.

I've had that head pain in the same location, back of the head. I've called it migraine, but technically it's occipital neuralgia.

Mine's almost like burning, with a feeling of squeezing / pressure / congestion. It's not usually terrible though, like a 2 on the pain scale. It's just SO nice when it's gone or nearly gone, which is what happens when I keep my sugars and carbs down. Or sugars and grains down?

Thanks for the 'spitballing' guys. I'm wondering if these foods have something in common that we're missing.

(Sings: I've got a theory...) <--- and if you 'get' that, HIGH FIVE.

-J

 

[panckage]

I was shocked to discover that I'm only mildly gluten intolerant, according to a sensitivities panel (for what that's worth).

Can you give info on this test? From what I have read there are no reliable ways to test for food intolerances

 

[SickOfSickness]

By cross-contamination, I meant the obvious. Such as someone is gluten-sensitive but eats oats, which are not certified GF. They often have small amounts of gluten as you know.

What oil(s) did the potato chips contain? How many ounces did you eat? I always eat way too many, but I only eat the ones with paleo oil(s).

 

[JaimeS]

Sure, @panckage -- I was actually planning on redoing it, because it's been a year, and I hear food intolerances can change over time.

Here is my personal experience. The 'levels' to which you are sensitive to something may not matter because we consume things in different amounts/concentrations. For example, mushrooms are a level 2 sensitivity for me, and so is Brewer's yeast. There is so little Brewer's yeast left in most alcohol that I don't have problems ingesting it, but the amount of mushrooms in mushroom soup is significant, and it does provoke neuro symptoms.

Also, I'm not sure how reliable the 'levels' are in general, because (at least according to Mayo) they may shift according to how recently you have ingested that food item.

All that said, the foods I already had problems with all showed up on my list, and I even when I ignored sensitivities that I thought were no big deal for me (see: almonds, above) it turned out that I was, in fact, reacting to them and had better stop. Another one was shrimp -- one of my favorite Japanese dishes had been making my throat scratchy and swollen for a few months before I got the test results back. I had no idea what was setting me off, I just knew I couldn't have that food item anymore. It turned out it contained crab -- which showed up on my list.

I would not say it's 100% reliable -- hence my comment -- but it has been considerably useful to me.

KDM did mine; I was tested using the FoodStats Antibody Assessment from US BioTek Laboratories.

I had to yank it out to get the name, and I'm looking at my allergens and I'm kicking myself a little. The report tells me I really don't have to worry so much about Class I and II allergens, but those are the ones that kick me in the butt: wheat, mushrooms, crab, and almonds. We all know PWME are just plain more sensitive, period, and so perhaps even foods that are in the low end of reactive are still pretty reactive for US.

Corn and spelt and sesame seed are also level 1s. Maybe I'm just so reactive I have to avoid those too...

-J

 

[JaimeS]

By cross-contamination, I meant the obvious. Such as someone is gluten-sensitive but eats oats, which are not certified GF. They often have small amounts of gluten as you know.

So, like, the plant that processes wheat also processes sorghum and so particles of gluten get in the sorghum? Or they're grown in the field side by side?

That way lies madness! Not for people who are IgE allergic, but probably for me.

Here's something else that's intriguing. My FoodStats says I'm not intolerant to gluten or gliadin. As in, that's not why I react to wheat. Mayo swore I wasn't gluten intolerant too, from a skin-prick test.

But FoodStats does say I react significantly to wheat. So I'm allergic to something in grains that isn't gluten or gliadin...

-J

 

[brenda]

I read that lectins are a huge problem with leaky gut and sprouting grains seeds nuts and beans helps but only later after allowing the gut to do some healing.

I have my foot burning this evening, a sure sign that l ate something bad and seeing l can't get to sleep, it must be bone stock.

 

[JaimeS]

Tried B-complex for that, @brenda ? I use Terry's Naturally Healthy Feet and Nerves, which has benfotiamine (and no, I'm not an employee of their company, though if every time I said that I got paid, I'd be considerably wealthier.)

[Edit: that isn't to say that you didn't eat something that disagreed with you. Whenever I do, I get B-vit deficiency symptoms within a few hours. I think the gut inflammation may prevent it from being absorbed normally, and I know some of the common pathogens in ME/CFS love B12 and suck it up like it's going out of style.]

-J

 

[SickOfSickness]

I'm not sure about the gluten contamination, but it's an interesting question.

 

[JPV]

There is a paper here on wheat's inflammatory effects. I have no doubt thatmy body is just that sensitive to inflammation, but... can this really be the case for all grains?

Any theories? Anyone else notice upticks in inflammation with ANY grains?

Wheat and sugar cause me a lot of problems with inflammation.

You might want to read up on Paul Jaminet's "Perfect Health Diet". His diet focuses on avoiding inflammatory and toxic foods.

Pretty much all the foods you seem to be having issues with are on his "do not eat" list...

• Do not eat cereal grains — wheat, barley, oats, corn — or foods made from them — bread, pasta, breakfast cereals, oatmeal. The exception is white rice, which we count among our “safe starches.” Rice noodles, rice crackers, and the like are fine, as are gluten-free foods made from a mix of rice flour, potato starch, and tapioca starch.
• Do not eat calorie-rich legumes. Peas and green beans are fine. Soy and peanuts should be absolutely excluded. Beans might be acceptable with suitable preparation, but we recommend avoiding them.
• Do not eat foods with added sugar or high-fructose corn syrup. Do not drink anything that contains sugar: healthy drinks are water, tea, and coffee.
• Polyunsaturated fats should be a small fraction of the diet (~4% of total calories). To achieve this, do not eat seed oils such as soybean oil, corn oil, safflower oil, sunflower oil, canola oil, or the like.

 

[Skippa]

I get increased neurological issues from wheat. Not all sources of wheat affect me equally, which has me questioning what it is about the wheat that does this. It might even not be wheat but herbicides like glyphosate. Or not.

Hmmm... That makes me think...

Anyone who reacts badly to wheat, have you noticed less severity or even zero effects if you try organic/non GM wheat/bread/whatever?

 

[JPV]

I get increased neurological issues from wheat. Not all sources of wheat affect me equally, which has me questioning what it is about the wheat that does this. It might even not be wheat but herbicides like glyphosate. Or not.

I also experience varying degrees of inflammation from different wheat sources.

I've been reading up on it and trying to figure this one out for years. It could be any number of things. Different breeds that have been engineered to have gliadin in them, glyphosate and bromine seem to be the most likely suspects.

I've also read that pastas, cooked al dente, are basically resistant starch. So those may not get digested as much as other wheat products.

 

[brenda]

Tried B-complex for that, @brenda ? I use Terry's Naturally Healthy Feet and Nerves, which has benfotiamine (and no, I'm not an employee of their company, though if every time I said that I got paid, I'd be considerably wealthier.)

[Edit: that isn't to say that you didn't eat something that disagreed with you. Whenever I do, I get B-vit deficiency symptoms within a few hours. I think the gut inflammation may prevent it from being absorbed normally, and I know some of the common pathogens in ME/CFS love B12 and suck it up like it's going out of style
-J

No, it only happens when l eat something my body does not like. It is not happening regularly. My diet is such that most of the time it is clean enough to react to let me know. I cannot take methyl b's anyway and l am eating such a huge amount of veggies and the duck eggs that l should be getting enough.

 

[South]

potatoes are high glycemic and high glycemic load,

Nope, potatoes (and any other food that by ITSELF may be high glycemic) is not high glycemic if you eat them with protein or fat, as most people do (gravy, protein, butter).

The whole glycemic index topic doesn't matter when people eat the food with protein and/or fat, either of which slow down the glycemic impact to that of any low glycemic food. Whew, one less food rule to have to worry about!

 

[JPV]

Nope, potatoes (and any other food that by ITSELF may be high glycemic) is not high glycemic if you eat them with protein or fat, as most people do (gravy, protein, butter).

Yeah, that's another thing that Paul Jaminet talks about. He's very specific about the ratio of carbs, protein and fats that are optimum for health.

 

[Effi]

What this comes down to is that I'm finding no correlation. I don't tolerate anything as sweet as honey at all anymore, even though I don't get neuro symptoms from it. Corn definitely is too much (sugar? grain? Inflammatory chemicals? I've got no idea), but potatoes, which have a higher glycemic load don't ping me the same way.

Well it's not JUST the glycemic load/index. There's a lot of different factors. e.g. if you eat a potato with the peel still on it (which has lots of fibre), this will slow down the glucose uptake in the body. It also depends on how much of the actual food product your body can take up. And maybe that's the difference between a potato and corn - I think the body only processes the inside of a corn kernel. The outside... err... goes in and comes out the same. But the glycemic index is calculated on an entire kernel, while we're only taking up the 'sweetest' part of it.

It also matters a lot what you eat with it, with anything really. When your digestion is slow, it's a good idea not to mix up loads of different foods.

Suppose different pesticides are used on aboveground vs root veggies?

yes, I was thinking the same thing. Also the cross contamination that @SickOfSickness talks about. e.g. rolled oats: people with severe gluten intolerance can usually not eat them, because most have traces of wheat in them, either because they grow close to wheat, or they are processed in the same place as wheat.

 

[Skippa]

But the glycemic index is calculated on an entire kernel, while we're only taking up the 'sweetest' part of it.

No, GI is a kind of average based on many people's different insulin responses to eating different foods. Only the part that is taken up/the bodies' reaction is measured.

GI response is quite idiosyncratic and not a reliable measure for eating at all.

More and more research is showing that insulin response (and other responses) are unique for each individual, you need to eat "for you" not by following these measures.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/11/151119133230.htm

 

[brenda]

I am watching my fasting BS every day because of having to take in a small amount of carbs to save crashing my thyroid and interestingly, it was higher with a half portion of rice noodles than when l was a very naughty girl at Easter and ate a small kids chocolate lolly. Both with a meal.

 

[Gondwanaland]

The problem is in our guts, not in the food. I have tried the most pure grains grown by Tibetan monks (jk ). Every German rye, certified GF oat, etc bust my gut and cause horrible pains of all sorts and a mess in neurotansmitters.

Potatoes, potato skin, potato starch and maize starch are high in Chromium, which improves glucose tolerance, I think that's the catch.

I have been wondering if soils that aren't already naturally very rich in Chromium are even more depleted especially by corn/rice/wheat plantations. I have to look it up, but I think southeastern Asia has soils rich in Chromium. Broccoli and broccoli sprouts are good sources of Chromium. I wonder if it is the chromium in broccoli sprouts rather than glutathione precursors (perhaps both) causing pain relilef for DH and I.

Measuring glucose at home proved itself useless, because I can't assess how much insulin I need to keep my glucose stable. My husband always has nerve pain crises after indulging with sugar for a few days in a row, but it takes at least 24h for the pain to manifest itself. It took me a lot of symptom journaling to convince him If it isn't the pain, it is skin reactions.

Catch 22 is that his thyroid won't wake up without starch in the morning OTOH he doesn't have autoimmune reaction to grains and can eat them 1-2x monthly w/o symptoms. He tried supplementing with Chromium picolinate: his pain and cravings went away, but he had suicidal flashes So I threw away the supplement and feed him broccoli sprouts / steamed broccoli daily or at least every other day (small amounts to not trigger hypothyrodism).

 

[Sasha]

I haven't read this thread properly but it caught my attention because the issue of grains came up yesterday in relation to lectins and leptin in selfhacked's interview with Dr Jarred Younger:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/extensive-interview-with-jarred-younger.43870/

As you may recall, it was Younger whose work indicates a link between leptin levels and good/bad days in ME/CFS, and lectin intake apparently relates to leptin levels.

It looked interesting and I was going to go back for another read.

 

[brenda]

I am using cassava flour mainly for carbs. It is a tuber.